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  1. #161
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    I actually have no problem with pointing the finger the entire Muslim community. Ethnoculturally it has no place in the West at all, and it must be noted that a fanatic religious minority exists everywhere a Muslim community forms. It's a structural flaw of that culture. Fanatic Christian minorities exist in most places Christians exist as well, but they don't bomb public buildings. Ergo, Muslims are a liability to the West and should be removed writ large.
    Blackmail has already dealt with this rather well, so I just thought I'd add that this is merely xenophobia fed by inaccurate hasty generalisation, and padded out with one or two pompous bits of pseudo-philosophising that fail to justify themselves under scrutiny. What exactly do you suppose an "ethnocultural place" to be? This is no more than saying - "We belong here, they don't.", for which you fail to give reasons. How do you establish who belongs where? Do you belong where you are under this principle?

    And where does your principle of seggregation stop, again? This is a serious, and in context, necessary question; I hope you can see why, because it has important implications.
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  2. #162
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    I wonder what it means to "ethnoculturally have no place in the west". Perhaps then the whole non-native American population of the USA should be deported?

    To be honest I think Aleksei went beyond xenophobia, that kind of statement is the type of thing one only normally only hears from white supremacists. I say that without any exaggeration. The only people in Britain who would say that are the BNP and National Front.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

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  3. #163
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Eh, I don't really care enough about politics to defend my viewpoint at this point. Think what you like.
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  4. #164
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Fanatic Christian minorities exist in most places Christians exist as well, but they don't bomb public buildings.
    Ehh..
    Anti-abortion violence

    And did you forget about the Irish Troubles?

    In fact, here:
    Christian extremist terrorism
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #165

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Ehh..
    Anti-abortion violence

    And did you forget about the Irish Troubles?

    In fact, here:
    Christian extremist terrorism
    WTF.

    I'm afraid I'd not go blaming the Irish Troubles on religion or Christianity, so called "extreme" Christianity, where it involves violence, coercion and terror, is infact anathema and heresy.

    Its really not difficult to tell that, given just how many non-violence messages there are from Christ himself and, I mean, without inspiring him to abandon his own faith/culture Ghandi was inspired to non-violence by Christianity as interpreted by Tolstoy.

    To me that's "extreme" Christianity, the non-violence and faith of Quakers or others who will never respond to force or even extermination with violence, extreme to me because, perhaps as a result of lack of faith, I fall short of that and would consider violence a just response.

    In fact, while still being a Christian, I believe that violence would be just in many situations which it is presently illegal but I dont believe that for reasons of being Christian or believing that others should practice Christian norms. I dont. Those rules are for believers. Non-believers can do what they want and deal with those consequences.

  6. #166
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    WTF.

    I mean, without inspiring him to abandon his own faith/culture Ghandi was inspired to non-violence by Christianity as interpreted by Tolstoy.
    Is there really a direct relationship between Tolstoy and Satyagraha?

    Are you aware that Ahimsa principles are older than Christianity itself?

    Sometimes, Lark, you write things that defy imagination.
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  7. #167
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Is there really a direct relationship between Tolstoy and Satyagraha?
    To an extent. Lark has this one right - here:
    SGI Quarterly | Tolstoy and Gandhi's Law of Love

    You presumably haven't read too much of Tolstoy's moral writing, which was extremely influential around the time Ghandi was developing his ideas - or you'd be less surprised by the association.
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  8. #168
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    To an extent. Lark has this one right - here:
    SGI Quarterly | Tolstoy and Gandhi's Law of Love

    You presumably haven't read too much of Tolstoy's moral writing, which was extremely influential around the time Ghandi was developing his ideas - or you'd be less surprised by the association.


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  9. #169
    Sniffles
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    The Irish troubles were as much(if not more) about clashes of ethno-national loyalty as it was about religion. Many early leaders of Irish Republicanism were Protestants.

  10. #170

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    The Irish troubles were as much(if not more) about clashes of ethno-national loyalty as it was about religion. Many early leaders of Irish Republicanism were Protestants.
    The head of the original home rule party was also a prominant orange order (a protestant fraternity dedicated to protestant ascendency) leader, not something a lot of modern loyalists, especially those who want to march in orange lodges through catholic (although formerly protestant or mixed in some instance) neighbourhoods.

    I can understand the mistake because even the CIA factbook suggests that the IRA was motivated by political catholicism, a lot of loyalist intellectuals draw parallels with political islam.

    The religious angle has always been more important to protestants in NI, with some of them mixing it with fairly left field and radical US influences, including British Islam, Judeo-christianity (notice large J and lower case c) and the like. Although the knowledge of the UK's history isnt always as good there is a clear, clear sense of grievance, encroachment and threat. This is what motivated the reactions to civil rights at the beginning of the modern troubles. Largely violent, largely state mandated.

    The original Stormont government where imperial operators like those in India or around the world but they used the idea of a "protestant state for a protestant people", which was Carson's idea at the time of the 1921, Devalera in the ROI had largely set about creating an RC state, akin to Spain, so it had some credience in its original coining.

    Civil rights agitation agrieved a lot of protestants, some of which wherent much better off than disenfranchised RCs who didnt even always have the ability to vote, get proper housing or access services most British citizens took for granted. The aggrieved protestants turned to Ian Paisley and a lot like him, who started out as preachers styling themselves on the Scottish reformation leader John Knox, who was at a couple of removes an architect of the act of union and uniting of Enland, Scotland, Wales and Ireland into a single protestant Britain. Paisley pretty much saw himself as part of a vanguard against communism and political catholicism, even taking his act to the European parliament where he verbally abused the last pope.

    In the face of this the UK labour government closed up the Stormont assembly, set up a housing authority and tried to inject impartiality into government services while they also deployed troops to keep the peace, convinced that any day a break down of order could occur resulting in real genocide.

    Ironically, like at just about every other time in Irish history, the republicans, who wherent religiously motivated being motivated more by national identity and left wing ideology, where a minority movement without much appeal. It was violent responses to civil rights campaigning and then the deployment of troops, especially regiments from Scotland (which has a similar sectarian divide not yet eclipsed by secularism) which created support for them.

    Although I would say that when the final book can be written on Northern Ireland's troubles there will be a hell of a lot of spy games come to light, the US, UK, even Russia, had assets and agents and interested parties in NI, and the violent revolutionary archetype was blowing around the world still at that stage lookig for a home, giving rise to movements like the Red Army Faction in Germany, Weathermen in the US etc.

    A hell of a lot of the senior actors in both loyalist and republican paramilitaries where on just about everyones pay roll, UK, US, Russia, Gaddafi, name it.

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