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  1. #121
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    A true Stalinian response! Comrade Lenin would be proud of you!

    Just like Peguy, I would say you're definitely stuck into the 19th century. You conceive nothing past your orthodox Marxist Ideology. If Marx said they should build Steel factories and Chemical plants, then let's Haitians build Steel factories and Chemical plants!
    I'm reminded of David Harvey who pointed out that in the past, intellectuals used to try to prove beyond doubt their opinions (from pre-capitalist theologists to the likes of Adam Smith and Ricardo); but that since Marxism trumped them by using their own Law of Value against them, they have increasingly fallen back on subjectivism ("value is subjective") and accusations of heresy: "You're a Marxist; Marxism is wrong; therefore you are wrong".

    It's quite funny watching all the "progressives" merging with the far-right in their arguments against Muslims, against letting the brown people reproduce, against marxism, and ultimately against modernity (a globally integrated industrialized economy) itself.

    And then you have the shamelessnes to present that as some kind of "new" way of thinking which surpasses Marxism? when in fact you're not only pre-marxist, but pre-Smith, pre-modern?

    Come on my dear BlackMail! at least be honest and admit your ideological roots like I do. there's nothing worse than a plagiarist!
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  2. #122
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post

    It's quite funny watching all the "progressives" merging with the far-right in their arguments against Muslims, against letting the brown people reproduce, against marxism, and ultimately against modernity (a globally integrated industrialized economy) itself.
    A dinosaur like you should never call anybody outmoded.

    Questions:

    1/ Where have I "merged" my arguments "against Muslims" with the far-right? I did not say anything "against Muslims" as a whole, it would be nonsense. However, I frequently criticized Victor's obsession, libertarianism or the likes of JHBowden. Bananatrombones could testify of this. Does that mean that anybody who doesn't agree with you is a far-right extremist?

    Interesting.

    2/ Where did I say "brown people should not be allowed to reproduce"? Once again, such an outrageous accusation is typical of far left's intellectual dishonesty.

    3/ Who hasn't integrated modern notions of economy and technology? Green politics means adapting our specie to a globalized world, the one you have in the XXIth century. It means trying to survive, trying to evolve, and ackowledging what science and reason is telling us rather than obsolete theologies, ideologies or doctrines. Somehow, we're the ultimate pragmatic people.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  3. #123
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Blackmail, what can you tell me about trends in French politics? particularly, between rural and urban France
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  4. #124
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    "You're a Marxist; Marxism is wrong; therefore you are wrong".
    It's always funny to see you use repeated sophistries against your so-called political adversaries.
    Once again, I am pragmatic, and Marxism is a very complex philosophy which had a tremendous influence on mankind. Sociologically, I could say I'm Marxist, I would be not ashamed to reckon it. His theory about class alienation is still very important and relevant today. But economically, forgive me but he was outdated from the very start because paradoxically he made the same mistake than the neo-classic school. He based value on work, and work alone. And he considered the economy to be more important than politics... etc...

    Therefore, I should not say I criticize you because you're a follower of Marx, but rather because of the way you interpret his works: like a religion, like a modern faith. Hence the term "Stalinist", which is in fact a dangerous perversion of Marxism, just like fundamentalism is a perversion of any religion.

    I think it would be time for you to attempt an exegesis of "Das Kapital".
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  5. #125
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Charity is just a band aid on that. Working people can only rely on their collective organization to defend living standards, not the charity of some rich saviour.
    Yes, it seems the Unions need to form their own political party like the Australian Labor Party, founded in 1891 by the Unions to represent them in Parliament.

  6. #126
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    Blackmail, what can you tell me about trends in French politics? particularly, between rural and urban France
    Well. Since we're an old country, the political division rather stands SouthWest vs Northeast than Rural vs Urban. It's completely different than what you have in the US.

    We have an equal amount of "rural regions" which vote Left and Right, and we have an equal amount of cities which vote Left or Right. It depends first and foremost of the local political culture.

    Therefore, I'd say it's a very complex subject.

    Check for instance this:

    Presidential elections of 2007:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...l-election.png

    (Blue: Sarkozy -conservative-; Pink: Royal -socialist-)

    Another significant result is our far right party, the FN. The FN makes high scores ONLY in the East, especially in Alsace and Provence, while its scores in Brittany are ridiculous.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  7. #127
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Well. Since we're an old country, the political division rather stands SouthWest vs Northeast than Rural vs Urban. It's completely different than what you have in the US.

    We have an equal amount of "rural regions" which vote Left and Right, and we have an equal amount of cities which vote Left or Right. It depends first and foremost of the local political culture.

    Therefore, I'd say it's a very complex subject.

    Check for instance this:

    Presidential elections of 2007:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...l-election.png

    (Blue: Sarkozy -conservative-; Pink: Royal -socialist-)

    Another significant result is our far right party, the FN. The FN makes high scores ONLY in the East, especially in Alsace and Provence, while its scores in Brittany are ridiculous.
    fascinating
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  8. #128
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    1/ Where have I "merged" my arguments "against Muslims" with the far-right? I did not say anything "against Muslims" as a whole, it would be nonsense. However, I frequently criticized Victor's obsession, libertarianism or the likes of JHBowden. Bananatrombones could testify of this. Does that mean that anybody who doesn't agree with you is a far-right extremist?
    You have argued in favour of Islam's cultural exceptionalism - i.e. that it is inherently more intolerant - than Judaism or Christianity.

    Saying you disagree with the conclusions the far-right draw from this, the point is that you defend their culturalist assumptions, from which authoritarian measures are the only logical conclusion.

    Your position is like an intellectual in Nazi Germany saying "well I don't agree with authoritarian measures, but the Jews really do need to get their house i n order when it comes to greed and usury".

    2/ Where did I say "brown people should not be allowed to reproduce"? Once again, such an outrageous accusation is typical of far left's intellectual dishonesty.
    You blame poverty on overbreeding by the populations of third world countries. whether or not you stand by the practical conclusions which will be drawn from that is up to you.

    3/ Who hasn't integrated modern notions of economy and technology? Green politics means adapting our specie to a globalized world, the one you have in the XXIth century. It means trying to survive, trying to evolve, and ackowledging what science and reason is telling us rather than obsolete theologies, ideologies or doctrines. Somehow, we're the ultimate pragmatic people
    This sounds very nice, but how do you aim to "adapt" and "evolve" when you oppose expaniding production to the point where it can provide firsst-world living standards for the existing population of the world; and when you oppose the one energy source (nuclear) which could make possible the transition from fossil fuels to an economy based on diversified energy sources.

    again, ncie words, but in the concrete, I have seen you oppose nuclear power, meaning that the above quoted generalities, could never be practically applied.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    It's always funny to see you use repeated sophistries against your so-called political adversaries.
    Once again, I am pragmatic, and Marxism is a very complex philosophy which had a tremendous influence on mankind. Sociologically, I could say I'm Marxist, I would be not ashamed to reckon it. His theory about class alienation is still very important and relevant today. But economically, forgive me but he was outdated from the very start because paradoxically he made the same mistake than the neo-classic school. He based value on work, and work alone. And he considered the economy to be more important than politics... etc...

    Therefore, I should not say I criticize you because you're a follower of Marx, but rather because of the way you interpret his works: like a religion, like a modern faith. Hence the term "Stalinist", which is in fact a dangerous perversion of Marxism, just like fundamentalism is a perversion of any religion.

    I think it would be time for you to attempt an exegesis of "Das Kapital".
    This is what I am talking about - show me evidence where I treated Marxism like a religion?

    and also, when did Marx say that economics was more important than politics? He recognized a dialectical interrelationship between the two. In any case, I reject the idea that economics is more improtant than poltiics, I think they are inseperable. If you knew Lenin's Theory of Imperialism properly, you would know I think that.

    The difference between us is I go on what you say, while you simply go on what you imagine my opinions to be. And then you call me intelelctually dishonest!

    Basically it comes down to is that I dare to believe in Marx's Labour Theory of Value and you don't, but this simple act of heresy by me means that every time you respond to me you feel entitled to fling all kinds of abuse about my supposed "orthodoxy", how I'm a "dinosour", a "Stalinist", etc. It's really quite tiresome. :rolli:
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  9. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    That's a major reason why there is less upward mobility than there should be. The poor-but-bright have a rough time of it, and poor schools in the United States are absolutely depressing.
    We're both talking about different things. I meant our society as a system. Social mobility is just an inner process, that doesn't affect the overall structure. A glass of water is still the same glass of water even after you shake it.

  10. #130
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    You have argued in favour of Islam's cultural exceptionalism - i.e. that it is inherently more intolerant - than Judaism or Christianity.
    Absolutely not. I never said anything about so-called "inherent" properties of Islam as a whole, while you did. However, I mentioned that there are specific issues within the theology spread by 3 madhab of Sunni Islam. The truth is simply that I know Islam far more than you do, that I'm more down to earth, analytical and factual, and hence, I'd say you're out of touch with the real world.
    I was just tired to see people debating over a subject where they're so deeply ignorant, where they confuse their own political prejudices with absolute truths. You were doing exactly the same mistake than true fascists like JHBowden, and even if you opposed him, that gives you no excuse.

    It's just intellectual laziness.

    Should you have practised modern sociology a bit more, you would know that the values spread by religion have always been a major political factor ("major" doesn't mean an absolute factor), and denying this is just a proof of blind stupidity. You can check Weber's, Simmel's, Durkheim's works. Of course, Marx never really understood this, but that doesn't imply Max Weber was a protofascist!

    Saying you disagree with the conclusions the far-right draw from this, the point is that you defend their culturalist assumptions, from which authoritarian measures are the only logical conclusion.

    Your position is like an intellectual in Nazi Germany saying "well I don't agree with authoritarian measures, but the Jews really do need to get their house i n order when it comes to greed and usury".
    I never said anything about my own conclusions, especially what I think of "authoritarian measures". This is absolutely ridiculous.
    And besides, you just reached Godwin's point. Congratulations.

    Godwin's point is often the proof that debate is dead.



    You blame poverty on overbreeding by the populations of third world countries. whether or not you stand by the practical conclusions which will be drawn from that is up to you.
    Once again, I never wrote anything even close to that. This is even more ludicrous.

    I get more and more the impression that you perceive the world in black and white. And that anybody who dares to disagree with you (even a fellow leftist) is simply labelled as "evil Fascist".

    Can I recommend you to check what Hannah Arendt wrote on the subject of Ideologies?
    Tcda, you behave exactly like a religious person, like a fundamentalist priest. And hence, it's not a big surprise to see that you accuse me of apostasy, heresy, or worst.



    This sounds very nice, but how do you aim to "adapt" and "evolve" when you oppose expaniding production to the point where it can provide firsst-world living standards for the existing population of the world; and when you oppose the one energy source (nuclear) which could make possible the transition from fossil fuels to an economy based on diversified energy sources.

    again, ncie words, but in the concrete, I have seen you oppose nuclear power, meaning that the above quoted generalities, could never be practically applied.
    Yes, you're right: let's build a nuclear power plant in Haiti and let's see what happens next.

    Once again, your views about extreme industrialization are ridiculous, totally outdated and possibly very dangerous.

    The truth is I have nothing about industrialization. But this is a careful process, not a goal to reach in itself. Once again, you're such an orthodox Marxist it's quite laughable to discuss things like that with you.



    This is what I am talking about - show me evidence where I treated Marxism like a religion?
    Because I have read Marx too. I'm not that naive: I'm very familar with Marxist dialectics, and I know how to recognize them.

    and also, when did Marx say that economics was more important than politics? He recognized a dialectical interrelationship between the two. In any case, I reject the idea that economics is more improtant than poltiics, I think they are inseperable. If you knew Lenin's Theory of Imperialism properly, you would know I think that.
    Hahahaha!!!

    My dear Stalinist friend, either it's time to read Marx more carefully, either you're joking with me.


    Basically it comes down to is that I dare to believe in Marx's Labour Theory of Value and you don't, but this simple act of heresy by me means that every time you respond to me you feel entitled to fling all kinds of abuse about my supposed "orthodoxy", how I'm a "dinosour", a "Stalinist", etc. It's really quite tiresome. :rolli:
    Yes, it's tiresome. Because you're such a extreme fundamentalist I'm wondering if ever it is really possible to discuss with you. Basically, you treat Marx words, exactly as some others would treat God's words.

    There's no subtleties, no gray areas when you write: you're 100% predictable. I already know what you will write next, how you will react next, and how you will interpret or analyze any possible subject.
    You're absolutely certain to be right while I'm not. You're a crusader who exhibits stereotypical behaviour in front of every possible situation.

    You would need to read a lot more. Try Adorno or Habermas, for instance.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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