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  1. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I am less concerned with income inequality than I am with the pie increasing significantly (without inflation) for everyone.
    I guess this may be why I dislike putting this issue into an ideological term, since it makes it easier to put the unavoidable existence of working people struggling on their incomes into a better light. Not that I have a flawless global solution, I'm probably just being a little sentimental.

  2. #112
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CollisionCourse? View Post
    I guess this may be why I dislike putting this issue into an ideological term, since it makes it easier to put the unavoidable existence of working people struggling on their incomes into a better light. Not that I have a flawless global solution, I'm probably just being a little sentimental.
    A lot of it is educational. The United States spends more per public school student than almost any other country, and our schools are mediocre.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    A lot of it is educational. The United States spends more per public school student than almost any other country, and our schools are mediocre.
    Is it really that significant in this matter? Better educated society would still need menial and manual work to be done.

  4. #114
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CollisionCourse? View Post
    Is it really that significant in this matter? Better educated society would still need menial and manual work to be done.
    That's a major reason why there is less upward mobility than there should be. The poor-but-bright have a rough time of it, and poor schools in the United States are absolutely depressing.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #115
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    I have to step in and say I wouldn't be here today, if it weren't because of private charity assistance provided to me. I slipped through the cracks of the welfare system in my chosen country, and wasn't eligiable, after experiencing exceptional bad luck (execerbated by current economic conditions) and having no family support and limited support from friends(because some of them were in similar positions). Very few people ever learn just how easy it is to find your self homeless. I'm not a stupid person. I was willing to do any job, but very few people are willing to give a scientist work cleaning houses, or shifts in a fast food place.
    I can see how people go to desperate measures to make money, and I have a concept of why people's morals go flying out the door. Morals mean nothing when you are starving and cold.
    I could tell you a story or two, about how people treat you and look down upon you too, as if you wanted to be in the position of begging for a food parcel, or lecture you on how you aren't trying hard enough, after you walked the whole day on foot handing out C.V's in the blazing sun, and you're a red head. If it weren't for private charity (and actual practical help), I would have killed myself. I thank what ever deity was looking over my shoulder during that time, that those people figured out I wasn't some drunk who pissed their money away or some poor mentally disturbed soul. Some thing else I discovered, kindness comes from the strangest of places, so yeah, I could well believe a hard nosed conservative, donating large amounts of money to charity, or helping out hand picked recepients with rent and food until they got back on thier feet.


    And you know what I would happily give over large sums of money, if it means helping some other person in a similar position as me, so never assume all homeless people are pan handlers(or drug f#@&ed), or people who ask for food parcels are looking for a free ride.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  6. #116
    Senior Member eagleseven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    so never assume all homeless people are pan handlers(or drug f#@&ed), or people who ask for food parcels are looking for a free ride.
    Having worked in soup kitchens and the like, you can usually tell the difference between those down on their luck, and those who enjoy their free ride. The latter often complain about the speed of service or quality of food (and it does happen, let me tell you).

    I am one of those dreaded libertarians who want to leave you alone.

  7. #117
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    No interesting theories I'm afraid.

    Just the obvious observation that that social emancipation is only possible in industrialized societies, whereas greens (an overwhelmingly "first-world" phenomeon) either explicitly or by implication oppose the right of underdeveloped countries to industrialize to the point where they can provide for their populations (as you have done yourself on this forum, by blaming poverty on overpopulation instead of economic underdevelopment).

    A true Stalinian response! Comrade Lenin would be proud of you!

    Just like Peguy, I would say you're definitely stuck into the 19th century. You conceive nothing past your orthodox Marxist Ideology. If Marx said they should build Steel factories and Chemical plants, then let's Haitians build Steel factories and Chemical plants!
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  8. #118
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I think you are the one who is misguided. The best way to make absolute poverty a thing of the past is to increase the amount and availability of generating wealth.




    Really? Private donations have made some of the biggest contributions to medical research, food relief, free libraries, and countless other things that have improved the lives of the impoverished and ill. Michael Milken, that seeming paragon of American capitalistic greed, has done more for cancer than almost anyone in the world.

    Oh, and I have to add this: living standards for African-Americans actually grew at a slower rate in the decade after the Civil Rights Act than they did in the decade before.
    When was the time where living standards rose most rapidly in the west? It was between the end of WW2 and the OPEC crisis of the mid 1970's. And it was based on the expansion of the industrial bases and a strong industrial working class, as well as the fear of the capitalist classes of a revolution and the Soviet Union, forcing them to concede wages and conditions which would before have been unimageinable.

    Since then (an extraordinary conjuncture which will likely never again be repeated under capitalism), we've seen 30 years of stagnating wages, cheap credit to replace wages (now collapsing around us), longer working hours, less rights, higher unemployment, "structural adjustment" and removal of state assistence around the world. All made possible through the defeats inflicted of the labour mvoement.

    Charity is just a band aid on that. Working people can only rely on their collective organization to defend living standards, not the charity of some rich saviour.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  9. #119
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagleseven View Post
    Having worked in soup kitchens and the like, you can usually tell the difference between those down on their luck, and those who enjoy their free ride. The latter often complain about the speed of service or quality of food (and it does happen, let me tell you).

    I am one of those dreaded libertarians who want to leave you alone.
    I just wanted to point out it isn't wasted on some people. I'm glad I have a good secure job now.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  10. #120
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Oh, and I have to add this: living standards for African-Americans actually grew at a slower rate in the decade after the Civil Rights Act than they did in the decade before.
    Is this a result of the Civil Rights Act or is it a result of the transition from an industrial economy to the economy we have today? Perhaps a little of both, but you can't ignore the impact technological improvements have had on a segment of the society that was particularly vulnerable to those improvements (due to education level) just so you can put all of the blame on social programs.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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