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  1. #101
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I'll be honest I like Oscar Wilde's argument in Soul of Man Under Socialism which suggests that no one should engage in private relief of poverty or even feel bad about refusing to do so because all it means is you're supporting its existence in some way.

    Charity is often a substitute for justice withheld, or necessary in some shape to permit structural maladjustment which causes unemployment or other maladies requiring "poor relief".

  2. #102
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Currently, I like liberalism--the concept of liberalism, if it could be so "pulled apart" from its context and applied in any civilized society (not sure about the boundaries, haven't thought about that). So that's Classical Liberal in a sense, but I'm of the opinion that there is nothing inherently different about the liberal aspects of Classical Liberalism than the ones of Modern Liberalism. The common thread exists in some aspects of those, and that is a "pure" liberal theoretical element--that, specifically, is the thing to which I ally.

    I do like shopping around, though.

    Edit: Maybe Conservative-Liberal.
    Last edited by Cimarron; 05-29-2010 at 09:09 AM.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  3. #103
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    How about proportions of their own money rather than amounts? That would be a more interesting comparison.
    Americans donate the highest proportion and dollar amount every year, that has been documented. John Stossel and Kristina Kendall looked into rich/poor and more liberal/more conservative donations a few years ago here.


    Who Gives and Who Doesn't? - ABC News
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  4. #104
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'll be honest I like Oscar Wilde's argument in Soul of Man Under Socialism which suggests that no one should engage in private relief of poverty or even feel bad about refusing to do so because all it means is you're supporting its existence in some way.

    Charity is often a substitute for justice withheld, or necessary in some shape to permit structural maladjustment which causes unemployment or other maladies requiring "poor relief".
    That is a nasty, anti-social attitude to take.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #105
    Energizer Bunny Resonance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    That is a nasty, anti-social attitude to take.
    But true.

    Note how he specifies 'private relief of poverty' - that means giving money to panhandlers and so on. That $1 or $2 or whatever could have gone to the local soup kitchen and guaranteed that the money goes to food for people who need it.
    The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together. ~ rCoxI ~ INfj ~ 5w6 so/sp

  6. #106
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blairvoyant View Post
    But true.

    Note how he specifies 'private relief of poverty' - that means giving money to panhandlers and so on. That $1 or $2 or whatever could have gone to the local soup kitchen and guaranteed that the money goes to food for people who need it.
    I absolutely dont believe in private relief of poverty, to be even more specific in individual or unorganised private relief of poverty, I remember hearing from someone who worked in a drop in centre for homeless people how much of racket begging was, they called it "tapping" and exchanged stories about using false/toy babies to curry sympathy, they could earn up to £500 in a day.

    I also believe that its very possible that this sort of giving can aggrivate rather than relieve poverty where its feeding a habit, no, I'd suggest since there's public assistance that you shouldnt give, that it should actively be discouraged.

    Public/state assistance is also organised giving, I dont think there's any kind of private rival or equivalent in the organisation of charitable collection and distribution, nor is there ever likely to be and most public/state assistance, even in socialistic welfare regimes, are firmly grounded in the principle of less eligibility, which charity is not, frequently based upon religious, philosophical or ethical obligations on the giver, not those in recept of money or assistance.

  7. #107
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    I believe that thosee well-intentioned people who give time and money to charities because they genuinely want to see poverty eradicated, are misguided, and should instead give that time and money to political struggle for structural changes to make the economy more equitable.

    Then we can discuss the form and content of that, but first and foremost, the answer to poverty can only be political. Charity never led to general rises in living standards in populations, only social movements (trade unions, civil rights movements etc.) have.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  8. #108
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    I believe that thosee well-intentioned people who give time and money to charities because they genuinely want to see poverty eradicated, are misguided, and should instead give that time and money to political struggle for structural changes to make the economy more equitable.
    I think you are the one who is misguided. The best way to make absolute poverty a thing of the past is to increase the amount and availability of generating wealth.


    Then we can discuss the form and content of that, but first and foremost, the answer to poverty can only be political. Charity never led to general rises in living standards in populations, only social movements (trade unions, civil rights movements etc.) have.
    Really? Private donations have made some of the biggest contributions to medical research, food relief, free libraries, and countless other things that have improved the lives of the impoverished and ill. Michael Milken, that seeming paragon of American capitalistic greed, has done more for cancer than almost anyone in the world.

    Oh, and I have to add this: living standards for African-Americans actually grew at a slower rate in the decade after the Civil Rights Act than they did in the decade before.
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  9. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    The best way to make absolute poverty a thing of the past is to increase the amount and availability of generating wealth.
    Do you think, that eradicating 'absolute' poverty is where public (let's say) responsibility ends, or do you also consider it important to rise relative living standards of poor people (by whatever means you find preferable), like tcda obviously does?

    increased amount of wealth is mostly channeled to the people increasing it, and better job availability alone won't change the fact, that a lot of jobs would still be terribly paid, if you're just growing the pyramid.

  10. #110
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CollisionCourse? View Post
    Do you think, that eradicating 'absolute' poverty is where public (let's say) responsibility ends, or do you also consider it important to rise relative living standards of poor people (by whatever means you find preferable), like tcda obviously does?

    increased amount of wealth is mostly channeled to the people increasing it, and better job availability alone won't change the fact, that a lot of jobs would still be terribly paid, if you're just growing the pyramid.
    I am less concerned with income inequality than I am with the pie increasing significantly (without inflation) for everyone.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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