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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    I have a very extensive understanding of libertarianism and all aspects of libertarian political theology theory,
    So you claim. And yet you make an assertion that is clearly refuted by available data; those who oppose an extensive welfare state consistently give more of their own money to charity than those who support an extensive welfare state. And by a pretty large margin, too.

  2. #92
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fecal McAngry View Post
    So you claim. And yet you make an assertion that is clearly refuted by available data; those who oppose an extensive welfare state consistently give more of their own money to charity than those who support an extensive welfare state. And by a pretty large margin, too.
    Where did you find the data that says that? I'm not challenging the truth of it, i just want to be able to use it myself later on.
    Johari Nohari

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  3. #93
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fecal McAngry View Post
    So you claim. And yet you make an assertion that is clearly refuted by available data; those who oppose an extensive welfare state consistently give more of their own money to charity than those who support an extensive welfare state. And by a pretty large margin, too.
    How about proportions of their own money rather than amounts? That would be a more interesting comparison.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  4. #94
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    did someone forget to note that less money is needed for charity in an extensive welfare state?
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  5. #95
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Independent Jeffstertarian.
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  6. #96
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    Yeah who needs charity when you're forced to pay for it. :rolli: Then again both are based upon an abstract understanding of aid to others.

  7. #97
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    did someone forget to note that less money is needed for charity in an extensive welfare state?
    Indeed. And in the absence of any welfare, I would bet that charity does go up, but only to a point... that comes no where close to the amount of money moved around in a welfare state.
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  8. #98
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    did someone forget to note that less money is needed for charity in an extensive welfare state?
    exacto.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  9. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yeah who needs charity when you're forced to pay for it. :rolli: Then again both are based upon an abstract understanding of aid to others.
    I agree it is an abstract understanding of aid to others.

    I would also say that its more to do with the circulation of money in the economy, the very moment that it was not necessary as an instrument of economic policy it would be nixed immediately, even states, like the US, which have developed a military-industrial alternative for circulating the money have sill got a (much more residual) welfare state.

  10. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fecal McAngry View Post
    So you claim. And yet you make an assertion that is clearly refuted by available data; those who oppose an extensive welfare state consistently give more of their own money to charity than those who support an extensive welfare state. And by a pretty large margin, too.
    Well I'd need to understand what was meant by extensive welfare state, are you talking payments, goods or services? To who? For how long? How is it assessed? What is the price tag/cost of assessment? Does "extensive" mean scope, size, generosity?

    The reality is that welfare states, in all examples, are economically expedient, hence they survive, they're not remotely redistributive since middle or upper income groups benefit as much or more than poorer populations, generally they are as entitled a those populations anyway, they're not remotely generous either, affording claimants subsistence lifestyles at most, and as proportions of taxation/buget expenditure they are dwarfed by other spending priorities.

    In the UK today Ian Duncan Smith, who wishes to dispense with benefits spending altogether, was still only able to indicate that such spending accounted for one third, only a third, of public expenditure.

    Also what charities? There are not any charities which mirror the payment of benefits within a welfare state, they generally are for some auxillary purpose, which if other states are anything like the UK, are even interdependent with or utilised by state services, such as childrens services and the national society for the prevention of cruelty to children.

    In states like the US there are massive contributions to charity which are infact the support of congregations for stadium Christianity, in what way does that rival or constitute an equivalent for welfare state spending priorities?

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