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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mask Manifest View Post
    In my opinion, those who join this group asking for the removal of the "Draw Muhammad Day" group are essentially saying, you don't have the right to say whatever you want if it offends me. That's what they should've named the group.
    I simply don't believe that's what they're essentially saying. I think Draw Muhammad Day is mean-spirited and I disapprove of it. That's not the same thing as telling you you don't have the right to say it. They're completely different concepts. This group is not trying to deny the Draw Mohammed people their rights; they're asking them not to do it. Believe it or not, it's actually possible to retain a right and yet choose not to exercise it when common courtesy suggests it's not a great idea.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  2. #82
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spin-1/2-nuclei View Post
    I'm fine with governments blocking social networking products that they find to be disrespectful to their people and in violation of their laws. I think the disconnect here is simply that they don't consider it free speech to mock muhammed (it actually violates one of their religious laws and they consider it a sin), so in the spirit of avoiding the same circular argument I've already had with you... my position is simply the following:

    I don't think this is about freedom of speech from their point of view and so who am I to tell another culture when they should be offended and how they should respond to being offend when they are.

    edit: according to this article - Muslim anger prompts Pakistan to block Facebook - Yahoo! News - facebook was blocked due to outrage from the citizens of Pakistan. I guess you find it hard to believe that muslims don't like having their culture openly pissed on and their laws blatantly broken? For some reason that's just not that weird to me and here is where we are having the disconnect.
    In other words, they don't support freedom of speech, and neither do you.

  3. #83
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    I get a distinct sense that the superiority of our own cultural values are being implicitly assumed from some of the comments in this thread. :rolli:
    If you consider freedom of speech to be a "cultural" value, then yes, its vastly superior to what is in place in Pakistan.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    In other words, they don't support freedom of speech, and neither do you.
    no I actually said the opposite. what you don't seem to support is a sovereign nation's right to enforce their laws as they see fit. the news clip didn't say they banned facebook in the USA (where it is not against the law to depict muhammed) it said that Pakistan banned facebook... and I think Pakistan is free to block facebook if facebook is going to violate it's laws...

    is the cause and effect really that difficult to follow here? facebook is breaking a law according to pakistan (not the USA) and therefore is blocked in Pakistan (not the USA).

    I'll give you an example if it makes things easier for you to follow. Let's say in light of what happened on 9/11 the USA decides to ban social websites that teach people in great detail via chat how to make bombs. If facebook allowed a "how to blow up shit with bombs" social network to exist on their site and it was in clear violation of our laws (but still technically free speech) I would have no problem with the US government shutting down FB if they refused to take the site down, even if FB was located in another country and what they were publishing wasn't in violation of the laws of that country. We are a sovereign nation, are we not?

    edit: if we don't want the US government to censor speech at all even if it helps promote terrorism in our country then we take that up with our legislators, but while the laws stand they should be respected... so if it's against the law to publish terrorist cook books online then you don't do it and if you don't like that then you contact your legislator and get the law changed you don't violate the law.... and it really is that simple in my mind.

  5. #85
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spin-1/2-nuclei View Post
    "In the Netherlands, an anti-Islam party has become the country's fastest growing political movement. Its leader, Geert Wilders, calls the Quran a "fascist book" and wants it banned in the Netherlands. His 2008 short film offended many Muslims by juxtaposing Quranic verses with images of terrorism by Islamic radicals." - Muslim anger prompts Pakistan to block Facebook - Yahoo! News

    It seems like some western countries are fine with bannings of their own so long as it suits their agenda as well.
    Sadly, many of them do; the essential difference is that laws against "hate-speech" are aimed explicitly toward preventing violence, not to protect the delicate sensibilities of one class of people. Geert Wilders was drawing attention to the fact that, in accordance with the illiberal laws already in place in the Netherlands, the Koran would have to be banned if those laws were to be equally, rather than arbitrarily, applied.

  6. #86
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spin-1/2-nuclei View Post
    no I actually said the opposite.
    You might think you said the opposite (assuming your obtuseness is genuine instead of an act), but your post demonstrates otherwise.

    To avoid "circular" arguments, why don't we leave it at that and invite the other posters to draw their own conclusions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    If you consider freedom of speech to be a "cultural" value, then yes, its vastly superior to what is in place in Pakistan.
    and this is why the advancement of mankind will continue to suffocate under the poison that is evangelical religious zealots, cultural elitist, and closed minded individuals that for some reason think it's cool for them to tell other countries what laws they should and should not have...

    Ironically some of these same people are against a one world government. LOL! These people want other countries to convert to their brand of life (without any input from it's citizens) and yet some how think that can be accomplished without giving the citizens of those countries adequate say in the laws of the other world countries that wish to convert them.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    You might think you said the opposite (assuming your obtuseness is genuine instead of an act), but your post demonstrates otherwise.

    To avoid "circular" arguments, why don't we leave it at that and invite the other posters to draw their own conclusions?
    do you ever tire of telling other people what they should do?

  9. #89
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spin-1/2-nuclei View Post
    and this is why the advancement of mankind will continue to suffocate under the poison that is evangelical religious zealots, cultural elitist, and closed minded individuals that for some reason think it's cool for them to tell other countries what laws they should and should not have...

    Ironically some of these same people are against a one world government. LOL! They want other countries to convert to their brand of life and some how think that can be accomplished without giving the citizens of those countries adequate say in the laws of their own country.
    And the question remains: are simply trolling for a Godwin response, or do you seriously believe that claptrap? Either way, I'm done.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    And the question remains: are simply trolling for a Godwin response, or do you seriously believe that claptrap? Either way, I'm done.
    lol! so me not subscribing to your brand of bullshit = troll? I believe in freedom of speech in the USA as I've said before, what I don't like are people that resort to your preferred tactics of forcing people to submit to their brand of law. Just because I respect Pakistan's rights to enforce their own laws how they see fit doesn't mean that I wish to change anything about the laws we have in America. There is a difference between supporting freedom of speech (which I do) and forcing freedom of speech (which I do not support). I support sovereign nations making their own laws and us respecting those laws unless we find them so abhorrent we are willing to risk american lives to go over there and change them through war (this being something I know something about) - and what I've learned from trying to force people to conform through violence is the simple fact that it has not worked in the past, it did not work for us this time, and it will not work for us in the future.

    So you can call me a "troll" if you wish, but I think it's just the ramblings of a person that cannot deal with someone who has a dissenting opinion. While I believe in your right to think and believe what you want you clearly think I must either agree with you or be labeled a "troll"...

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