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  1. #71
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Let me be more clear, as I am kind of deriving my own meanings for these things.

    I know one cannot be both fundamentalist and catholic. However, the fundamental preposition for both religions is that Jesus Christ was the Son of God. There are many Christians out there with their own flipped views of Christianity, ranging from beliefs in evolution, to the Big bang, to the actual creation story, to figurative symbols about the Bible, to veneration of saints, to rejection of saints, etc etc. However, they always uphold the fundamental "Jesus is Lord", hence the name "Christian".

    Likewise, Islam has its own fundamentals - but they aren't even addressed in these cartoons. It's merely a jab at an invisible dummy. Why is it so outrageous? It's just like how anything that's even remotely perceived as contrary to a hardened belief system is blown into a distortion, and I'm sure you know much more about those issues than I do, in regards to violence and persecution.
    Im going to be very blunt here: you don't know what you are talking about!

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Im going to be very blunt here: you don't know what you are talking about!
    Oh master, edify me.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    There are exceptions?
    Turn the other cheek is meant for offenses against you personally.

  4. #74
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Let me be more clear, as I am kind of deriving my own meanings for these things.
    Now why does this not surprise me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    I know one cannot be both fundamentalist and catholic.
    I'll try to help, as you appear somewhat confused on this. My understanding is that a fundamentalist is simply someone who holds conservative, traditionalist beliefs in whatever faith is in question. The frequent use of "Fundamentalist" and "Fundamentalism" as perjoratives has helped muddy the waters here. Religious extremists are necessarily on the fundamentalist wing of their faith, this does not been however, that fundamentalism is synonymous with extremism. Nor does it mean that there cannot be Catholic fundamentalism, though the term is indeed used within Christianity mainly to refer to a particular strand of Protestant evangelism.
    Look into my avatar. Look deep into my avatar...

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    Now why does this not surprise me?



    I'll try to help, as you appear somewhat confused on this. My understanding is that a fundamentalist is simply someone who holds conservative, traditionalist beliefs in whatever faith is in question. The frequent use of "Fundamentalist" and "Fundamentalism" as perjoratives has helped muddy the waters here. Religious extremists are necessarily on the fundamentalist wing of their faith, this does not been however, that fundamentalism is synonymous with extremism. Nor does it mean that there cannot be Catholic fundamentalism, though the term is indeed used within Christianity mainly to refer to a particular strand of Protestant evangelism.
    I knew all of this. I'm just being cheeky.

  6. #76
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    I knew all of this. I'm just being cheeky.
    This doesn't surprise me either.

    It does tend to remove any possible substance from what you have to say, however, if you treat it merely as an amusing intellectual exercise in redefining terms to suit yourself.
    Look into my avatar. Look deep into my avatar...

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    So, just to clarify, you're fine with governments banning speech that they disagree with or find offensive? That's pretty scary.
    I'm fine with governments blocking social networking products that they find to be disrespectful to their people and in violation of their laws. I think the disconnect here is simply that they don't consider it free speech to mock muhammed (it actually violates one of their religious laws and they consider it a sin), so in the spirit of avoiding the same circular argument I've already had with you... my position is simply the following:

    I don't think this is about freedom of speech from their point of view and so who am I to tell another culture when they should be offended and how they should respond to being offend when they are.

    edit: according to this article - Muslim anger prompts Pakistan to block Facebook - Yahoo! News - facebook was blocked due to outrage from the citizens of Pakistan. I guess you find it hard to believe that muslims don't like having their culture openly pissed on and their laws blatantly broken? For some reason that's just not that weird to me and here is where we are having the disconnect.

  8. #78
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    "In the Netherlands, an anti-Islam party has become the country's fastest growing political movement. Its leader, Geert Wilders, calls the Quran a "fascist book" and wants it banned in the Netherlands. His 2008 short film offended many Muslims by juxtaposing Quranic verses with images of terrorism by Islamic radicals." - Muslim anger prompts Pakistan to block Facebook - Yahoo! News

    It seems like some western countries are fine with bannings of their own so long as it suits their agenda as well. In this case, since there is nothing about western culture that requires this, they truly are just pissing on free speech in the Netherlands by suggesting they make a law to ban the Quran...

    Until we can teach some people (fundamentalist of most religions) to stop trying to force their way of life on others through legislation and violence instead of through written or verbal persuasion, we will always have these problems in our world. It really is that simple and it's sad that after thousands of years we still can't figure this out.

  9. #79
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Turn the other cheek is meant for offenses against you personally.
    That's your interpretation. Your interpretation leaves the door wide open for violence in the name of others, which I don't think was the intent of the sermon.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #80
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spin-1/2-nuclei View Post
    I guess you find it hard to believe that muslims don't like having their culture openly pissed on and their laws blatantly broken? For some reason that's just not that weird to me and here is where we are having the disconnect.
    I get a distinct sense that the superiority of our own cultural values are being implicitly assumed from some of the comments in this thread. :rolli:

    By the by, I think people are being somewhat gullible if they honestly think that the reason certain people and organisations in the West have backtracked on the dissemination of material deemed offensive by some Muslims is because they are bowing to threats from extremists. It would concern me a lot more if I thought this was truly the case to be honest, but I suspect the real reason is an attempt to avoid causing needless offense and exacerbating social divisons. It may be more about protecting Muslim minorities from feeling victimised and defensive and therefore paving the way towards greater integration in the future. The media does a good job of spinning this issue as being about Muslims being demanding and intolerant in line with the Islam = threat agenda, but that's no reason to believe everything they say.
    Look into my avatar. Look deep into my avatar...

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