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  1. #61
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Asking such a very simple question does not mark one a fundamentalist. It's an absurd remark either way you cut it. By this standard, Plato could be considered a fundamentalist, since he noted the dangers of allowing the defaming of the sacred to the long-term stability of the state.

    And in American law, as I've been noting in the Church vs State thread, this was the understanding throughout much of the early Republic. One famous example was People v. Ruggles, which upheld a conviction on blasphemy on the grounds:
    "The free, equal, and undisturbed, enjoyment of religious opinion, whatever it may be, and free and decent discussions on any religious subject, is granted and secured; but to revile, with malicious and blasphemous contempt, the religion professed by almost the whole community, is an abuse of that right....

    ...Though the constitution has discarded religious establishments, it does not forbid judicial cognisance of those offences against religion and morality which have no reference to any such establishment, or to any particular form of government, but are punishable because they strike at the root of moral obligation, and weaken the security of the social ties."

    The latter bolded parts touches upon some of Plato's arguments on the matter btw. Freedom of speech does not mean a free for all, which in the end actually trivalizes and demeans such a freedom.

    Freedom of speech and conscience are born out of the free will given to us from God, who is the father of the order of being. So to claim such freedom is more sacred than its author doesn't make much sense. Even from a legal positivist perspective, freedom of speech is given simply because the state allows it - but even then freedom of speech is not necessarily sacred in itself, but less sacred above everything else.

    Hence my question.
    The most ironic thing I find about this article is that the statement "Jesus Christ is a bastard, and his mother was a whore", is that it's a direct undermining of what it means to be a Christian - believing that Jesus Christ was the son of God. However, it was illustrated in such a light that it evoked a large, emotional response.

    On the other hand, these cartoons don't do anything to undermine any belief system. They are designed to solicit an irrational response, just like Piss Christ does to Christians:


  2. #62
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    On the other hand, these cartoons don't do anything to undermine any belief system. They are designed to solicit an irrational response, just like Piss Christ does to Christians:

    In other words it's trolling. You're deliberately trying to desecrate a sacred symbol(in the case of piss Christ) or a teaching regarding a sacred figure(such as the ban on protraying Muhammad). This is not the same as a free and open discussion concerning Islamic teachings.

  3. #63
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Mystic Tater, do you even know what fundamentalism means?
    Yes, I do. Do you?

    Main Entry: 1fun·da·men·tal
    Pronunciation: \ˌfən-də-ˈmen-təl\
    Function: adjective
    Date: 15th century
    1 a : serving as an original or generating source : primary <a discovery fundamental to modern computers> b : serving as a basis supporting existence or determining essential structure or function : basic
    2 a : of or relating to essential structure, function, or facts : radical <fundamental change>; also : of or dealing with general principles rather than practical application <fundamental science> b : adhering to fundamentalism
    3 : of, relating to, or produced by the lowest component of a complex vibration
    4 : of central importance : principal <fundamental purpose>
    5 : belonging to one's innate or ingrained characteristics : deep-rooted <her fundamental good humor>

    The fundamental nature of your belief system involves Jesus Christ being the son of God. That is the source from which all other Christian things entail.

    What is normally dubbed "Christian Fundamentalism" refers to a set of beliefs that is sola scriptura, but depending on how you interpret it, it could be a misnomer.

  4. #64
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    In other words it's trolling. You're deliberately trying to desecrate a sacred symbol(in the case of piss Christ) or a teaching regarding a sacred figure(such as the ban on protraying Muhammad). This is not the same as a free and open discussion concerning Islamic teachings.
    So why feed the troll? Wouldn't it be better to just ignore it, if you were a Muslim?

  5. #65
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Do you?
    Yes actually I do.

    The fundamental nature of your belief system involves Jesus Christ being the son of God. That is the source from which all other Christian things entail.

    What is normally dubbed "Christian Fundamentalism" refers to a set of beliefs that is sola scriptura, but depending on how you interpret it, it could be a misnomer.
    I don't adhere to sola scriptura(which is the basis of Protestantism, not fundamentalism), nor do I adhere to a literalist interpretation of scriptures - which is the main point behind fundamentalism. I cannot be a fundamentalist AND a Catholic.

  6. #66
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    So why feed the troll? Wouldn't it be better to just ignore it, if you were a Muslim?
    Speaking from a Christian perspective, trolling against God is not covered under turn the other cheek.

  7. #67
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Speaking from a Christian perspective, trolling against God is not covered under turn the other cheek.
    Trolling against God?

  8. #68
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yes actually I do.



    I don't adhere to sola scriptura(which is the basis of Protestantism, not fundamentalism), nor do I adhere to a literalist interpretation of scriptures - which is the main point behind fundamentalism. I cannot be a fundamentalist AND a Catholic.
    Let me be more clear, as I am kind of deriving my own meanings for these things.

    I know one cannot be both fundamentalist and catholic. However, the fundamental preposition for both religions is that Jesus Christ was the Son of God. There are many Christians out there with their own flipped views of Christianity, ranging from beliefs in evolution, to the Big bang, to the actual creation story, to figurative symbols about the Bible, to veneration of saints, to rejection of saints, etc etc. However, they always uphold the fundamental "Jesus is Lord", hence the name "Christian".

    Likewise, Islam has its own fundamentals - but they aren't even addressed in these cartoons. It's merely a jab at an invisible dummy. Why is it so outrageous? It's just like how anything that's even remotely perceived as contrary to a hardened belief system is blown into a distortion, and I'm sure you know much more about those issues than I do, in regards to violence and persecution.

  9. #69
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Mystic Tater, do you even know what fundamentalism means?
    Doesn't look like it, though I was rather amused by his ingenious attempt at redefining it.
    Look into my avatar. Look deep into my avatar...

  10. #70
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Speaking from a Christian perspective, trolling against God is not covered under turn the other cheek.
    There are exceptions?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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