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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    A famous example was the crowning of a whore as "Goddess of Reason" in front Notre Dame Cathedral during the French Revolution. Although a more grotesque example would be how priests and nuns sent to the guillotine were taunted with "Revolutionary communion", ie chalices filled with pigs' blood.
    The Goddess of Reason crowned in Notre Dame was the model for the Statue of Liberty.

  2. #32
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    See there, Lateralus? A prime example of exactly what we were discussing.
    I know of no democratic, secular society that espouses execution for those who say, burn the flag, or some other act roughly equal to drawing a picture of a prophet.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    I have always been confused about censorship, and why people are offended about the expressions of certain things that violate sacred subjects. I suppose my confusion stems from the fact that I think that free speech should be more sacred than anything, whether a person is slandering a subject, or promoting it. The freedom to express oneself should be the highest common denominator in any society, imho. But of course, I'm speaking from my own cultural bubble.
    There are plenty of things that are censored, even in our western societies...

    The truth is that for the muslims drawing muhammed goes beyond mere slander or freedom of speech. I don't agree with most of their beliefs but who the hell am I to tell them how to interpret their religion.

    This is where things like tolerance, respect, and understanding have to come into play, but many of us westerners aren't so great at that so - I suspect people will never understand why certain cultures choose to do certain things if they continue to refuse to view those cultures through the appropriate lens.

  4. #34
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It's difficult to take someone seriously who can't write a single post without spewing their emotions in such a fashion.
    He only seems to post to rant about his particular political bugbears. I'm certainly not taking him seriously until he learns to actually contribute something relevant to the debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    .
    What we have here are one set of loonies busy trying to offend and another set of loonies getting offended over something that makes no sense.

    The freedom of speech argument is a red herring: specifically it is the right to offend. Oberon is quite correct, a nice thick skin is required for all kinds of believers these days.


    Sadly people who just want to abuse the privilege of free speech (which I also happen to be a firm supporter of) for their own immature self-pleasuring really don't do the concept as a whole any favours.

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    See there, Lateralus? A prime example of exactly what we were discussing.
    I think nebbykoo and Bowdler would get on better than they migh think on the evidence, despite the fact that they probably think they have profound philosophical differences...

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Oh no. I would agree with you that it's pretty much the default state of human beings. The individual who is really willing to defend the free-speech rights of someone with whom they fundamentally disagree is vanishingly rare. I think people who are willing to acknowledge that about themselves is also pretty rare. I struggle with it myself.
    Indeed. There's a difference between mature, principled free speech and a mere self-gratifying abuse of the privillege though. Whenever I feel in doubt on this issue I tend to remember what Milton, also an ardent supporter of the principle in difficult times, had to say:

    ...
    But this is got by casting pearl to hogs,
    That bawl for freedom in their senseless mood,
    And still revolt when truth would set them free.
    Licence they mean when they cry liberty;
    For who loves that, must first be wise and good.
    But from that mark how far they rove we see,
    For all this waste of wealth and loss of blood.
    Look into my avatar. Look deep into my avatar...

  5. #35
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    Muslims should draw pictures of Facebook in retaliation.

    Seriously though, if they don't want to depict images of their holy prophet...so be it; but to expect other people who don't share their beliefs to have the same reverence is silly and to react violently is immature.

  6. #36
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    I know of no democratic, secular society that espouses execution for those who say, burn the flag, or some other act roughly equal to drawing a picture of a prophet.
    You missed his point. Maybe he wants to explain it though...
    Look into my avatar. Look deep into my avatar...

  7. #37
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    You missed his point. Maybe he wants to explain it though...
    You're probably right. I don't have time to comb over this thing.

    Here's my picture of the prophet: .

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mask Manifest View Post
    Muslims should draw pictures of Facebook in retaliation.

    Seriously though, if they don't want to depict images of their holy prophet...so be it; but to expect other people who don't share their beliefs to have the same reverence is silly and to react violently is childish.
    in this case aren't they just blocking FB, though? That seems reasonable to me. Christians in the western countries boycott/block products/companies that are in support of ideas/concepts that they find offensive or sinful. I guess I don't see the difference.

    it's obviously wrong to issue death threats, like what happened with the cartoonist, but in this case I'd say their actions make sense. If some company tells me they don't respect my beliefs then I'd probably stop using them too. If the citizens of those countries don't agree with the ban of FB they can always take it up with their government...

  9. #39
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    They might as well block the entire Internet....

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by spin-1/2-nuclei View Post
    in this case aren't they just blocking FB, though? That seems reasonable to me. Christians in the western countries boycott/block products/companies that are in support of ideas/concepts that they find offensive or sinful. I guess I don't see the difference.

    it's obviously wrong to issue death threats, like what happened with the cartoonist, but in this case I'd say their actions make sense. If some company tells me they don't respect my beliefs then I'd probably stop using them too. If the citizens of those countries don't agree with the ban of FB they can always take it up with their government...
    It's entirely reasonable for them to boycott offensive material, even though I'm pretty sure Facebook didn't create the user group themselves. I was just addressing the intolerance of religious extremists who expect everyone else to yield to their beliefs, regardless of the religion.

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