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  1. #21
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You do realize that the position you describe is reactionary. It's a reaction to people who believe everyone else is inferior and they are that way because they were born the wrong color, religion, country, etc...and they're going to hell.
    You're exactly correct. This is precisely the attitude of today's post-modern humanist. The 'hell' part is figurative, of course, but very apt...

  2. #22
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    You're exactly correct. This is precisely the attitude of today's post-modern humanist. The 'hell' part is figurative, of course, but very apt...
    I know you really wanted to get a jab in on a group you don't like, but I believe far more people fall into that category than you do (not just people with ideologies I don't like). I'd wager a majority of humanity could be categorized in that fashion, to varying degrees.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #23
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I know you really wanted to get a jab in on a group you don't like, but I believe far more people fall into that category than you do (not just people with ideologies I don't like). I'd wager a majority of humanity could be categorized in that fashion, to varying degrees.
    Oh no. I would agree with you that it's pretty much the default state of human beings. The individual who is really willing to defend the free-speech rights of someone with whom they fundamentally disagree is vanishingly rare. I think people who are willing to acknowledge that about themselves is also pretty rare. I struggle with it myself.

  4. #24
    morose bourgeoisie
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    My question is this: Is it reasonable to call for the death of someone simply because they draw a picture? It is not, whatever machinations you engage in to be 'inclusive'.
    Secularism is an advancement over fundamentalism. In what religiously-based society are women considered something more than baby factories?
    Also, we are not facing a conflict of islam against secular values. All religions reflect the values of the culture over which thay lay, and the nomadic, tribal values that gave birth to islam are in opposition to modern secular values. Religion is a pretext to their preservation.

  5. #25
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    My question is this: Is it reasonable to call for the death of someone simply because they draw a picture? It is not, whatever machinations you engage in to be 'inclusive'.
    Secularism is an advancement over fundamentalism. In what religiously-based society are women considered something more than baby factories?
    Also, we are not facing a conflict of islam against secular values. All religions reflect the values of the culture over which thay lay, and the nomadic, tribal values that gave birth to islam are in opposition to modern secular values. Religion is a pretext to their preservation.
    See there, Lateralus? A prime example of exactly what we were discussing.

  6. #26

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    Whenever I hear about something like this, I feel like everyone misses the point. It's not about what you have the right to do. Obviously, you have the right to do it. But as I've said before in other threads, just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean it's always a great idea to exercise that right. It's akin to foreclosing on someone's home on Christmas. Do you have the right? Sure. Does that mean you're not a dick? No.

    I agree with Bananatrombones - the intent is clearly to offend. If you don't believe in their God or their system of belief, then what are you getting out of defaming it anyway other than the cheap thrill of being contrary? If a group of people hold something sacred, what does it cost you to just leave them alone? When you don't have a dog in the fight, and you're just poking people with a stick because they've made themselves vulnerable by declaring something sacred to them, then you're just being a petulant child.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

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  7. #27
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    Whenever I hear about something like this, I feel like everyone misses the point. It's not about what you have the right to do. Obviously, you have the right to do it. But as I've said before in other threads, just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean it's always a great idea to exercise that right. It's akin to foreclosing on someone's home on Christmas. Do you have the right? Sure. Does that mean you're not a dick? No.

    I agree with Bananatrombones - the intent is clearly to offend. If you don't believe in their God or their system of belief, then what are you getting out of defaming it anyway other than the cheap thrill of being contrary? If a group of people hold something sacred, what does it cost you to just leave them alone? When you don't have a dog in the fight, and you're just poking people with a stick because they've made themselves vulnerable by declaring something sacred to them, then you're just being a petulant child.
    Well, there are those who believe that religious values actually hamper progress, and seek to negate those values whenever possible in order to facilitate human advancement. For these people the denigration of religious values and all their implications is a cause... dare I say it, a holy cause in the religion of secularism.

  8. #28
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Well, there are those who believe that religious values actually hamper progress, and seek to negate those values whenever possible in order to facilitate human advancement. For these people the denigration of religious values and all their implications is a cause... dare I say it, a holy cause in the religion of secularism.
    This.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  9. #29
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Well, there are those who believe that religious values actually hamper progress, and seek to negate those values whenever possible in order to facilitate human advancement. For these people the denigration of religious values and all their implications is a cause... dare I say it, a holy cause in the religion of secularism.
    I know plenty of Christians who have no respect for Muslims on this issue.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #30
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    For these people the denigration of religious values and all their implications is a cause... dare I say it, a holy cause in the religion of secularism.
    A famous example was the crowning of a whore as "Goddess of Reason" in front Notre Dame Cathedral during the French Revolution. Although a more grotesque example would be how priests and nuns sent to the guillotine were taunted with "Revolutionary communion", ie chalices filled with pigs' blood.

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