User Tag List

First 456

Results 51 to 52 of 52

  1. #51
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    3,377

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    I'm talking about morality on an individual level. America has succeeded because americans in the past have generally restrained themselves and have not behaved like animals. This enables the government to give the people more liberty. The less self-restrained people are the more the government has restrain them and take away liberties.
    I am talking about what makes America distinct. What you are saying here could be applied to any country. The US has always stood out among other countries for its acceptance of people from different backgrounds.


    I don't know that much about islam. But what I do know is that all religious views have core axioms that have political implications. And religions like any philosophy demand consistency in their maturation. Of course this is not always true experientially. In fact people act in disparity with their beliefs quite often. Nonetheless, I reserve the right to judge someone's ability to serve in political office based upon their fundamental religious beliefs and the natural implications of those beliefs.
    How can you judge someone's religious beliefs if you don't even know what they are? If you listen you might find the political views of Muslims are actually pretty similar to those of Christians.

    My point is not that society shouldn't have diversity and the freedom of speech. But, I have to wonder why our society values those things so much that you hear people say that they will die for them far more often then you hear people say that they will die for their family, home or faith.
    There is nothing distinctly Christian about dying for your family, home or faith. Anyone from any background could do that. What is distinctly Christian is viewing someone as your equal even if you disagree with them on something as fundamental as religion. And that is what the separation between Church and State is about. It's about ensuring the equal rights of people that may be the complete opposite of you in every way. Or to put it in Christian terms:

    "But I say love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and on the unjust, too. If you love only those who love you, what good is that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect." Matt. 5:44-48
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
    http://www.revoltingvegetables.com

  2. #52
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    4,804

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I am talking about what makes America distinct. What you are saying here could be applied to any country.
    No, America is unique in this respect... at least historically. Before america came along democratic republics never succeeded on a large scale. You had small city states, but never a nation. That is why when Tocqueville, a french catholic, came to america in the early 19th century he was astonished that the nation had lasted for an entire 50 years. In, Democracy in America, Tocqueville attributed the success of the US to the morality of the citizens he encountered.

    As it stands america is still the largest, oldest, and longest lasting democratic republic the world has ever seen. But, I fear that its greatness will not continue if the hearts of the people do not change.



    How can you judge someone's religious beliefs if you don't even know what they are? If you listen you might find the political views of Muslims are actually pretty similar to those of Christians.


    I'm speaking in generalities here. I'm merely using islam as an example.


    There is nothing distinctly Christian about dying for your family, home or faith. Anyone from any background could do that.
    I never said it was.

    What is distinctly Christian is viewing someone as your equal even if you disagree with them on something as fundamental as religion.
    No, that is not distinct. Secular-humanists and other religions believe the same thing.

    What is distinct about Christianity is that we have a rational reason for viewing all people as having equal value. That is that all are made in the image of God.

    Also, what do you mean by viewing someone as your equal?



    And that is what the separation between Church and State is about. It's about ensuring the equal rights of people that may be the complete opposite of you in every way.
    a) I don't believe separation of church and state is constitutional. see previous posts by myself and Peguy.
    b) I do believe that the church and the state have separate jurisdictions.
    c) The separate jurisdictions of church and state can only exist if one presupposes that their is a Christian God who has established a natural order with separate jurisdictions for the institutes of government, church, and family.
    d) People should be treated equally by the state to the extent that God has not given jurisdiction over the mind to the state.


    Or to put it in Christian terms:

    "But I say love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and on the unjust, too. If you love only those who love you, what good is that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect." Matt. 5:44-48
    this passage is directed to individuals not the state. The state cannot love its enemies. The state has a duty to its citizens to protect them from their enemies which would mean doing unloving things like bombing the state's enemies.

    This is one of the the most frustrating aspects of popular Christianity today. The fact that that people take passages that are intended to apply to the church, family, and individual and try to apply them to the state.

    One more time, the church, the state, the family, and the individual are separate institutions with separate jurisdictions. The bible does not deal with them all in the same way although there is some overlap.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 155
    Last Post: 08-03-2013, 12:41 PM
  2. Ideological Makeup of the Supreme Court of the United States
    By Jonny in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 06-27-2012, 01:11 AM
  3. What Is The Future Of The United States?
    By highlander in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 112
    Last Post: 02-24-2010, 04:20 AM
  4. Separation of Church and State
    By G-Virus in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 43
    Last Post: 12-03-2008, 03:22 AM
  5. A World beyond Politics? A Defense of the Nation-State
    By Sniffles in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 09-01-2008, 07:30 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO