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  1. #31
    Senior Member durentu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starsiege View Post
    maybe, a better solution was to make 1/3, 1/3 (or some such number) quota to men and women. this might solve the claims of special preference

    and would also ensure diversity.
    1/3 of sammich goes to dad
    1/3 of sammich goes to mom
    1/3 of sammich goes to everyone else

    forever.

    Sounds like socialism to me.
    "People often say that this or that person has not yet found himself. But the self is not something one finds; it is something one creates." - Thomas Szasz

  2. #32
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebe View Post
    Do you think that would be a good idea? To make it a law that seats be reserved for women.

    When I first heard of this method, I was dead set against it. But the more I think about it, the more I think it might not be such a bad, crazy idea.

    Yes, yes, what's wrong with women that we can't get ourselves voted?
    But, it'd be this sweeping, radical change and it'd happen basically overnight. There would be problems, of course, but wouldn't it be better to radically change the 'stereotypes' and the system rather than wait a couple more decades for the old, white men dominated government to be slightly different.

    When this came up in class, I said that why is gender the most prominent issue when it comes to government representation? What about religion? I am so sick of public officials mentioning God in their public speeches. I am so sick of policies being determined/influenced by God. What about race? What if Asians want .5 representation? Yes, gender is 50/50 but does that necessarily mean it should be the only factor in representation? I don't see myself primarily as a woman, I see myself as a Democrat, as an atheist, as Asian...what does being a woman really matter in politics?

    Recently, India is pushing for 1/3 of government seats for women - their women are very behind in almost every sector. And their minorities are outraged.

    My professor said the Nordic countries have the highest rate of women in office and that is because they have a quota. I could be wrong. Rwanda has a quota and is up there on the list.

    What do you think?
    Women occupy the majority of the cabinet posts in my country.
    They understand their function in the cabinet?
    No.
    Why not?

    The Minister of the Interior is a woman of the National Conservative Party.
    There were two school killings. The culprit had access to hand guns.
    Journalists asked the Minister if handguns should be made illegal.
    She said she is going to negotiate with the police and the bureaucrats in the administration.
    The police and the bureaucrats told her it would be a stupid idea.
    The journalists asked her again.
    She said: "I negotiated with the bureaucrats in the administration. They said the prohibition of handguns would be a stupid idea."
    End of discussion.

    Romania joined EU. There were Romanian beggars in Helsinki. Not many.
    A member of the National Conservative Party, a policeman, made a speech.
    He said it is time to prohibit begging. Begging should be made illegal.
    A person who gives money to a beggar should be prosecuted.
    The Minister of Interior started preparations to change the law in question.

    If the police dictates police affairs, we do not need elections.
    Or politicians. We have a police state.

    The women who are interested in power may call themselves feminists. They are not interested in the rights of women. Or democracy.

  3. #33
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    How the hell would this work in a democracy?

    Would you have "women's" seats where only women can apply? How does this even help? Doesn't this send the message that women are somehow unequal and therefore need a special election?

    It's like a price floor -- if we really didn't need it, there would be no point to have the law in the first place, and yet if we do, there's a chance we're hiring unqualified people just to reach the quota.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  4. #34
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    ugh quota's ....

  5. #35
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    No, I don't like quotas. Sexism in government is reflective of sexism in the culture and you need to begin about change in the culture first. This takes a lot of time and isn't easy but its necessary for the change to be real.

    New Zealand has a traditionally macho culture and yet we are managing to change without the assistance of legislation. I just checked, currently 34% Members of Parliament and 30% Cabinet Ministers are female. Not, so great but we're getting there slowly.

  6. #36
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    What about intersexed people?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  7. #37
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    What about intersexed people?
    Or transsexuals or every other conceivable minority like gays or bi's and so on so that there's equal representation of everyone?

    Oh yeah, yeu can't cover everyone, and the point is that... having someone who IS a certain race/religion/type/gender/etc doesn't mean they VOTE that way.

    Srsly.

    The point of having a government IN THE FIRST PLACE, is because the average citizen doesn't have the time or attention to learn the intricate details from all angles to make laws and other large decisions.

    We elect other people, based on our viewpoint, and then tell them whot OUR viewpoint is - it is their job to relay OUR viewpoint, but filter it through their additional time spent on research that we flat out don't have time to do.

    If we want to be wealthy, they need to figure out whot the best way for that to occur is, and try to give us our requested end result, but how we get there we leave up to them.

    Their race/religion/etc doesn't matter. Their job is flat out to do whot we want as voters. If we don't want women to vote (as a historical example... though honestly then my opinion wouldn't count back then but this's a theoretical example XD ), then their end goal is to not let women vote, because the voters have decided upon such. It's not their place to dictate values; the government can't MAKE values, they are only able to express the values of the people that hired them. They are CIVIL SERVANTS for a reason. They are SERVANTS. They do whot the people want. If the majority of the people hold an opinion, it is their job to carry out that opinion, whether they agree with it or not personally. Yeu're not being hired into government for the sake of carrying out yeur own private little war, yeu're hired in to carry out the multitude of wars that the people who voted for yeu want yeu to fight.

    Regardless, whether yeu hire a male or female to do the job is literally, quite irrelevant, by definition. They are, by their job description, required to make the same decisions. Hiring a female doesn't mean yeu're representing females at all. How do yeu think women got the right to vote? There obviously wasn't *ANY* women in cabinet at the time, so yeu can't claim "Oh well the female senators all did their part and forced the matter!" Erm, no. No. NO. No they didn't. Because they didn't exist. Obviously, it was because the values of the population at the time had decided that they wanted females to vote due to many other things going on at the time, such as the feminist movement. But anyways, the point is that there was NOT ONE SINGLE FEMALE IN GOVERNMENT who made that decision. And yet, women were still represented. By men.

    Not every female elected is going to be "ZOMG WOMENS RIGHTS!!!!!1!!1!11!eleven". It's stupid to think so. I'm not saying that lightly. I mean it flat out. It is STUPID to believe that every single woman is a feminazi who's only reason to get into politics is to represent women.

    Yeu may notice that about 52% of the population is female. Hillary clinton and Sarah palin didn't get elected. Funny how that works. Because they didn't represent the views of all the female voters out there, despite being female.

    There's alot more to this than JUST gender.

    As I said, however, yeur gender does not dictate yeur views. And yeur views do not matter as heavily as one may think; yeu're not being elected to stress YEUR views. Yeu're being elected to stress *MY* views as the voter.

    Yeu are supposed to use yeur position to take *MY* concerns and values, evaluate them as objectively as possible, and use *MY* ideals as the basis for yeur decisions... but yeu use yeur time and resources to figure out if my concerns are valid, if my values are true or just apparitions of fear, and so on.

    But it's not yeur job as a politician to do whotever the hell yeu want, which people in general have forgotten lately, and politicians have used to their advantage. Their job exists because they are supposed to represent the people. The people's views. The people's values. The people's desires.

    They are not there to promote their own personal agendas.

    As such, it flat out shouldn't matter if yeu're female or male.

    It does, sadly, but it shouldn't.

  8. #38
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebe View Post
    Do you think that would be a good idea?
    No, I think it would be a very bad idea.
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  9. #39
    Senior Member Rebe's Avatar
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    I wonder how the quota countries actually got that passed. How were their factors different from the listed above. I think only one of you said it'd be a good idea.

    Rwanda, I think, established the quota as they were rebuilding their country after the genocide, but I am not sure.

    One of the major arguments is that women are generally less aggressive and competitive so...politics would become more about diplomacy and warfare would be less because mothers...blah blah...

    Is feminism about men and women being equal and identical and should be treated the same because there is No difference or women should celebrate their differences and feel empowered by it?

  10. #40
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebe View Post
    Is feminism about men and women being equal and identical and should be treated the same because there is No difference or women should celebrate their differences and feel empowered by it?
    Yes, there are differences, and they should be accepted that they do exist. Pretending both sides are identical is silly.

    However, the term "empowered" is foolish in general, regardless of context, and especially in this one.

    Yes, yeu should feel STRONGER and POWERFUL because... because... uhm... because yeu're the same as every other one of the 6 billion snowflakes out there. But yeu're DIFFERENT! Really! So feel POWAH! Yeu can change the world because yeu're different! Just like everyone else!

    Srsly.

    Make use of whot yeu have; there's differences, some physical, some mental, some emotional, etc, etc ad nausium. Embrace yeur strengths, lessen yeur weaknesses, but don't waste yeur time pretending yeu're something yeu're not. It's a waste of time and energy, and doesn't have nearly as productive results. Use whot yeu have to the fullest extent there is.

    Just don't go on a head trip and think yeu're "empowered" because yeu're female... because that means that yeu assume yeu're somehow better or advantaged by such, and implies men can't be "empowered" for being male... which's silly. The mere term implies heavily that it is a one sided advantage, and it really isn't.

    Both sides have their benefits and disadvantages. If yeu want to think of yeurself as 'empowered', I guess go ahead if it lets yeu sleep better at night... but I'm still going to think yeu're an idiot tossing around the management buzzword of the minute with no clue whot it means XD

    While yeu're at it, yeu should go proactively synergize some paradigms.

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