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  1. #51
    Riva
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    Quote Originally Posted by You'reWrongI'mRight View Post
    I don't understand how people generalize and define an entire religion by the religiously-extremist minority.

    I agree with tcda.
    No offense. But when the minority is spreading hate and violence, the majority sits and waits and takes no actions. I don't see the Muslim majority condemning the actions of terrorists. Atleast not loudly enough.

  2. #52
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curzon View Post
    No offense. But when the minority is spreading hate and violence, the majority sits and waits and takes no actions. I don't see the Muslim majority condemning the actions of terrorists. Atleast not loudly enough.
    So what every single Muslim has the bruden on them to come out and condemn every act of terror or else they should come udner suspicion, even if they have no connection at all to any terrorist groups?

    Maybe I should demand that every time NATO troops kill an Afghan person the majority of Americans and English should come out and condemn it, otherwise they become implicated in it?
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  3. #53
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    The curse of Ham, for example.
    Are you refering to the Torah or to a modern comment of it?

    If it's only the Torah, then your remark is completely irrelevant.

    Have you any other example?
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  4. #54
    Riva
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    So what every single Muslim has the bruden on them to come out and condemn every act of terror or else they should come udner suspicion?
    Not every single Muslim. An organized group of Muslims publicly condemning the actions of terrorists would send a message (to the non Muslims and the terrorists).

    And the muslim majority (some people speak of) should have an issue finding a few 100 people to make a simple protest.

    Is it that hard?

    Maybe I should demand that every time NATO troops kill an Afghan person the majority of Americans and English should come out and condemn it, otherwise they become implicated in it?
    Yes they did. When Afganistan was invaded and Iraq was invaded there were massive amounts of protests from NATO member nations.

  5. #55
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    1.) Let's not equate legitimate protest against Israel with Islamist extremism. The majority of people in the world see Israel as a terror state, and the majority of people are not Islamists.
    The majority of people in the world aren't even aware what Israel or Jews are. Or when they know something, most of the time they are fairy tales (see Arab press, for instance).

    I think that what characterize Jews over the ages, is that no other people in the entire history of mankind has been subjected so many times to wild fantasies and nonsensical rumors.

    But this is another debate.

    ---

    My dear TCDA: when will you become factual, precise and rational?

    Because using demagogy against demagogy will lead us to nowhere. Trotskyst propaganda is no better than Fascist propaganda. No side has a better legitimacy to debate.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  6. #56
    figsfiggyfigs
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curzon View Post
    No offense. But when the minority is spreading hate and violence, the majority sits and waits and takes no actions. I don't see the Muslim majority condemning the actions of terrorists. Atleast not loudly enough.
    Honestly, I see it all the time; I've seen people come on tv and try to make a point. People, generally, for some reason, just don't listen to Muslims( esp in the USA) unless they're making threats, which is really weird.
    I'm sure a great mass of people would speak out about it, which some do, but most people fear the extremist themselves.That's like putting a target on your back.

    I have received A LOT of negative treatment from people(even relatives) who, although do not advocate what is happening, think it's inappropriate of me to speak about the topic all together, because to them, I would be offending my religion/culture somehow. I don't see how that is a rational, logical way to think. Quite a few Muslim, esp after the 9/11 attacks, have developed this " you're with us, or you're against us" mentality due to the hate they encountered all over the world. I believe they have this fear that if someone draws attention to the extremist, people will generalize, and assume most Muslims are extremist wackos.<--- which is what IS happening.

    The problem with that as well is education. A LOT of Muslims in the USA for example, are refuges from third world countries and have not received proper education; and might even believe what some people are doing is wrong, paradoxically believing that murder is an offense to god.

    Muslims in Asia/Africa don't bother to worry about what is going on in the USA/Europe as much.




    That is why it's such a frustrating topic that I rarely make any comments on it. It's frustrating. Many Muslims want to speak out, some do, but not enough; Most fear what their community/family would think, they fear the extremists in those areas; they fear people who hate Muslims; and worst of all, some don't even care.



    I'm sorry if this sounded like I'm going around in circles. I was just going to go to bed but then I got your message

  7. #57
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Not every single Muslim. An organized group of Muslims publicly condemning the actions of terrorists would send a message (to the non Muslims and the terrorists).

    And the muslim majority (some people speak of) should have an issue finding a few 100 people to make a simple protest.

    Is it that hard?
    Why should they have to do this nay more than any other group has to?

    Firstly terrorist attacks by Islamists on the west are extremely rare and when they do happen are the work of mad individuals and tiny cells. Why the hell shoudl Muslims have to take ona burden for this?

    Like I say, again, racist white groups attack msulims every day in the west. I don't see normal white citizens issuing public condemnations to Al Jazeera.

    It would be nice of course, but why hold one groupt o special standards?

    I am sure whatever country you are from has an army or racist groups who also carry out atrocities. Are you under the obligation to condemnd every single one publicly or become a legitimate target for retribution?

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Blackmail!: The point is not literaly about whether "the majority" of people in the world know about Israel, it is just a way of saying that many many more people and socieities oppose the Israeli state, than support it.

    This is nothing to do with antisemitism, and everything to do with the fact that the majority of people, rightly, identify more with a displaced and oppressed population, than with a colonialist settler project.

    Regarding the curse of Ham - I said "Jewish texts" not "the Torah". But I don't really care about this discussion so I will leave it there. No offence to you, I am not being rude, I just honestly don't care that much about it.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  8. #58
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Hence, the debate is impossible.

    We have a saying in French to describe this kind of situation: we call it a "deaf people's dialogue".


    Long time no see, Blackers. Popped back for a good debate? - You may be out of luck.

  9. #59
    Senior Member compulsiverambler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curzon View Post
    No offense. But when the minority is spreading hate and violence, the majority sits and waits and takes no actions. I don't see the Muslim majority condemning the actions of terrorists. Atleast not loudly enough.
    I've never heard a Catholic - major Irish politicians excepted - publically condemn the actions of the IRA on behalf of their religion, and I've never known anyone think to ask them.

    Nonetheless, hundreds of Muslim authorities have done just that, they're just not invited on TV or radio to talk in the first place and it's never a big news story (Richard Ascough of the Huffington Post claims to have written an article years ago in which he identified either 800 or 1200 imams who had signed petitions against Islamic terrorism - most writers on the subject just never bothered to look).

    It's absurd that people want anyone other than religious leaders to do so anyway. I think an ordinary Catholic would be rightly offended if you asked them "so do you condemn the terrorist attacks of the IRA, or support them?" I've never asked that of my Muslim friends, I've never had to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Curzon View Post
    Not every single Muslim. An organized group of Muslims publicly condemning the actions of terrorists would send a message (to the non Muslims and the terrorists).
    Message has been sent, there's just no one to deliver it. Most of the media have no interest whatsoever in neutering the story by showing people that.

  10. #60
    Senior Member compulsiverambler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Are you refering to the Torah or to a modern comment of it?

    If it's only the Torah, then your remark is completely irrelevant.

    Have you any other example?
    I would imagine that the point being made was that the Bible also features commands as savage as the Koran does, yet there is no assumption that every Jew and Christian believes in or even knows about these commands.

    There is actually a minority of Jewish people in Israel who do want to enforce the Torah as it's written and do commit acts of violence and terrorism. There are Christians in the USA who think the government should execute people for having gay sex, because of what the Bible says.

    However there is no assumption in the West that Christians and Jews are suspect soley because their holy book says such things. That's the double standard. Expecting that Muslims will have actually read the book they think the Creator of the universe wrote for them (and in a language they understand), instead of being just as flippant and lazy about it as the believers in the other Abrahamic religions are.

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