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  1. #11
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    The Wealth of Nations and Child Rearing Practices

    Quote Originally Posted by MafiaAngel180 View Post
    I think we consume far too much. Corporations would be NOTHING without us. If there aren't better regulations, we could turn our backs on them and focus strictly on responsible businesses because they are out there.
    Adam Smith, the Scottish economist and moral philosopher, taught us in his, "Wealth of Nations", published in 1776, that private greed creates public prosperity. And so the corporation was born.

    And the corporations have the runs on the board, for they have overcome scarcity for the first time in human history.

    Of course for most of our history we have railed against greed and usury. But we were wrong.

    So without our corporations we would be back to scarcity when life was short, sharp, nasty and brutish.

    But with the corporations we have discovered prosperity and plenty for the first time in human history.

    And this has led to continual improvement in child rearing practices, from the sacrificial form of child rearing, to the abusive form of child rearing, to the authoritarian form, to the helping form of child rearing, that is becoming more common in prosperous countries today.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Ming's Avatar
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    I think 'society' HAS/FORCED to be directed by 'values.' When you're born, you intake the information around you. Then you build yourself on top of that. You build bricks on top of bricks. That's how it works.

    You find yourself made by other people around you. 'Values' are thoughts. Thoughts are made by other people affecting your own way of thinking. Other things, like puberty, etc, are yours only. But values are made by someone else; and you take those starting blocks to make your own individual value/s.

  3. #13

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    What's the alternative to corporations? Workers councils? Executives and Quasi-Autonomous Non-Governmental Organisations? Trusts? What's to prevent the atrophy in them that you rightly remark on in relation to corporations?

    Its not just scale, some people are pretty nasty individuals to begin with and they just rise to the top because it suits them, they arent remade by their circumstance even if others are.

    So far as propaganda and dogma if its present its not very obvious, there is the stand alone ideological capitalism of people like the Tea Baggers but I dont believe that's what's being discussed.

  4. #14
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    Personality Types and Child Rearing Practices

    Child rearing practices started with the sacrificial form of child rearing, such as leaving a child out in the elements to die or even God's order to Abraham to gut and sacrifice his son.

    But as society become more settled and prosperous, we moved from the sacrificial form of child rearing to the abusive form of child rearing. This was of course an improvement as the child survived.

    And as society improved even further we moved from the abusive form of child rearing to the authoritarian form, such as compelling children by law to go to school to learn to read and write.

    And as we have recently overcome scarcity in the developed countries, we are moving from the authoritarian form of child rearing to the helping form, and we help our children achieve their goals.

    Interestingly each form of child rearing creates its own personality type.

    The sacrificial form creates the paranoid personality. As most children have probably seen a sibling put to death. And so fear for themselves.

    The abusive form of child rearing creates a schizoid personality, where the parental abuse is denied and acted out on one's own children.

    The authoritarian form of child rearing creates the obedient personality who is constantly fighting disorder. Unfortunately the obedient personality can't tell the difference between disorder and creativity. And so hates creativity as much as they hate disorder.

    The helping form of child rearing creates the empathic and creative personality. And we see this personality emerging in prosperous countries.

    Across the world the four forms of child rearing are still with us. And we see the sacrificial form in war, where we make blood sacrifice of our best and strongest in order to preserve our society and our God.

    So God's order to Abraham to gut and sacrifice his son is still being carried out today when we send our sons and daughters to war.

    However we have overcome scarcity in developed countries since WW II, and we are seeing more and more empathic and creative personalities emerge from the helping form of child rearing.

  5. #15
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    As one of my professor said "the most shocking thing about the world is that there is no grand control as most people believe. The fact is that no one really cares untill things go a way out of hand".

    And I agree with this statement. Since the world is a way too random place for my taste.

    I mean we are wasting far too much time, resources and attention to things that don't have nothing to do with anything or they are simply illusion of a choice. Since everything is technically in a status quo for quite some time.

    I am not saying that we need to abolish the democracy I am simply saying that we will need more determination in the future.

  6. #16
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    I don't think the idealism you seek would actually work in the real world unless EVERYONE buys into it.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    There is an exception though - there is no Chinese mathematics or Chinese chemistry or Chinese astronomy, or American astronomy or Afghan astronomy. There is only mathematics or chemistry or astronomy.

    So scientists from any society share the same values of evidence and reason. Otherwise science doesn't work.
    ...
    that is why freedom of speech is so important.
    Hmm... interesting point. That means that the way to a better society would need a science of ethics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    My very short response is: The apparent presenve of social values, or at least people acting on them, breaks down more the larger a population gets.
    Does that mean that large societies are doomed to be out of control?

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    Yeu'd become a socalist country.

    Considering how hard they worked to force the capitalist thing in the first place, it'd be near impossible to change now since the people have been forcefed dogma and propaganda for so long that they don't WANT to be happy or healthy or give a damn about anyone else. They want to have lots of STUFF, lots of MONEY, lots of personal gain. Everyone who doesn't have STUFF sucks and should be ignored because they're obviously lazy bastards.
    I am feeling slightly more optimistic. During my short life I've already seen some shift in the viewpoint of the people. When I was young the attitudes towards people who didn't spend was a lot more condescending than what it is now. Now it is even a bit fashionable to "downshift".

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    Now, that being said, yes, it's obvious societies are directed by their values. That's whot a society is. Srsly. People of like minded beliefs band together, this's how societies are formed in the first place. If they didn't have similar beliefs, it eventually cracks and turns into civil war. In the USA, there's only two parties and they both agree for the most part on most topics, with only minor issues with the specific details. They're not going to be total polar opposites of each other; their core values are still the same; their interpretation of such is the difference.

    It's like having say... christianity, there's literally THOUSANDS of different denominations... but they have the same root values, they just interpret the specific details differently is all.

    But yes, to answer yeur question, societies are directed by values. Laws are built upon those values. Dogma, religions, propaganda, it all is comprised of the same stuff from the same place.

    People will simply go towards like minded others. Or be forcefed the same stuff until they join them.
    You summed it up nicely there. Makes me think of how much there actually is that I am completely unaware. Values we take for granted. Maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea to remind us of them once in a while.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    What's the alternative to corporations? Workers councils? Executives and Quasi-Autonomous Non-Governmental Organisations? Trusts? What's to prevent the atrophy in them that you rightly remark on in relation to corporations?
    I'd start with getting the politicians their power back from the corporations. Then I would try to get as much of that power back to the people. As grassroot as possible. The power needs to be divided. There are some businesses where all the employees vote for everything. I think that is the closest thing to real democracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Interestingly each form of child rearing creates its own personality type.

    The sacrificial form creates the paranoid personality. As most children have probably seen a sibling put to death. And so fear for themselves.

    The abusive form of child rearing creates a schizoid personality, where the parental abuse is denied and acted out on one's own children.

    The authoritarian form of child rearing creates the obedient personality who is constantly fighting disorder. Unfortunately the obedient personality can't tell the difference between disorder and creativity. And so hates creativity as much as they hate disorder.

    The helping form of child rearing creates the empathic and creative personality. And we see this personality emerging in prosperous countries.
    That is an interesting thought. And it gives some hope. There are a lot of signs, though, that the "new breed" is very distressed by the way the world is run. Maybe it is the remainder of authoritarians who need to be kicked out of the politics to make a world that feels like a home for the new generation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    As one of my professor said "the most shocking thing about the world is that there is no grand control as most people believe. The fact is that no one really cares untill things go a way out of hand".
    Yes. Very true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I am not saying that we need to abolish the democracy I am simply saying that we will need more determination in the future.
    I am certain that democracy is not the problem. The problem is that there is nothing democratic about how the companies are competing for the right to consume everything the world depends upon. We need to get rid of the anti-democratic elements. That includes the politicians, in the long run. Real democracy is when the people have equal power to choose what our common fate will be. Now we can only choose who decides our fates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    I don't think the idealism you seek would actually work in the real world unless EVERYONE buys into it.
    I don't think so. Currently I am not buying the idea of this society, but they don't have a problem with that. They just ignore me. Besides, I think that if there was real democracy people would feel empowered and would protest less, even if their vote didn't win. They would still feel that they had the chance to have their say about it.

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Hmm... interesting point. That means that the way to a better society would need a science of ethics.
    Back during the French Revolution they tried that, ideology is an abbreviative term for what its author believed would be a "science of ideas", to replace all previous religious dogma. Andrew Vincent has some great stuff on this in his book Modern Political Ideologies.


    I'd start with getting the politicians their power back from the corporations. Then I would try to get as much of that power back to the people. As grassroot as possible. The power needs to be divided. There are some businesses where all the employees vote for everything. I think that is the closest thing to real democracy.
    I'd be in agreement but I wouldnt want Bush co. to have more power than they alreay do, likewise I dont know that in the workplace and at the grassroots there is a craving to exercise power and choice, some people do, they burn out aswell, most people dont. I think it would actually be a valid question to ask, in terms of determinism, if individuals are value directed even, then ask if societies are.

    There's a hell of a lot of unconscious push and pulls on individuals, a lot of them are late of maturing or experience maturational crisis, that's all before you consider the residum of people, which may or may not be expanding depending on how you think about it, of kids abused or neglected and whose development is eschewed as a result.

    In reality the great dreams of both left and right for simpler, truer social designs presuppose a lot of personal responsibility.

  9. #19
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    In the USA, there's only two parties and they both agree for the most part on most topics, with only minor issues with the specific details. They're not going to be total polar opposites of each other; their core values are still the same; their interpretation of such is the difference.
    This describes the failure of liberal democracy.

    Liberal democracy is based on the limitation of power, and this is achieved by having a Government and a Loyal Opposition.

    And to have an Opposition that will effectively oppose, we need at least two political parties with different histories and different values.

    For instance a Conservative Party opposed to a Social Democratic Party will limit power. Or a Party of Business opposed to a Party of the Unions will limit power.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Maybe it is the remainder of authoritarians who need to be kicked out of the politics to make a world that feels like a home for the new generation?
    Absolutely.

    And yes, it usually takes a generational change for a new paradigm to be adopted.

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