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  1. #51
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    ...All of whom were dragged into court for their crimes, and had key officers convicted and imprisoned.

    You're not really a robber baron unless you get away with it. Remember, my post was in response to mention of "untethered capitalism."

    The capitalism of the companies you mention is clearly tethered.
    Most of the people who were responsible did get away with it. Many of them simply fled the country with their loot. And those that were arrested and convicted get to spend their sentences in nice country resort prisons. If only I could be so lucky.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Most of the people who were responsible did get away with it. Many of them simply fled the country with their loot. And those that were arrested and convicted get to spend their sentences in nice country resort prisons. If only I could be so lucky.
    Every law has its lawbreakers. I won't apologize for them.

    But keep your eye on the ball, kid... my point is that what we have in this country cannot be fairly described as "untethered capitalism."

    Sure, people violate the boundaries... but there are boundaries. We're not living in the London of Charles Dickens.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Every law has its lawbreakers. I won't apologize for them.

    But keep your eye on the ball, kid... my point is that what we have in this country cannot be fairly described as "untethered capitalism."

    Sure, people violate the boundaries... but there are boundaries. We're not living in the London of Charles Dickens.
    True dat. But that is what many a libertarian wants. If Enron is the kind of behavior we can expect from a regulated system...

    I'm not inclined to trust free market to solve any more problems than it would cause.

    True, many private sectors are better at an affordable cost, but perhaps the only reason they are affordable is because they have a competing government system in place. Libertarians assume much with nothing to back it up except for their own values.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Libertarians assume much with nothing to back it up except for their own values.
    That's also true... but that vice isn't exclusive to libertarians, either.

  5. #55
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    You're not really a robber baron unless you get away with it. Remember, my post was in response to mention of "untethered capitalism."
    Course, the question are how many do we not know about? Would you say, for example, a large section of the current political administration (including democrats, like Pelosi) being in the arms industry would count? (Based upon everything small, like transfers of money to other countries to buy weapons back - more or less a direct transfer... to more conspiracy biases like outright war).

    It's a different time and it expresses itself differently. I wouldn't say much has changed, except that now they buy themselves political power (well, that's not really much different - before they could control government with their power... it's harder to do that now).

    Course, the underlying problem here is government intervention... that's why it doesn't work in the states. Countries that actually have a purpose to government - who use it as a tool/system rather than a weapon/enemy - make better use of it.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    That's also true... but that vice isn't exclusive to libertarians, either.
    I couldn't agree with you more.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Course, the underlying problem here is government intervention... that's why it doesn't work in the states. Countries that actually have a purpose to government - who use it as a tool/system rather than a weapon/enemy - make better use of it.
    Americans have become too complacent. Billions of tax dollars can just disappear, people can mysteriously die, and the elected officials can lie through their teeth and even destroy evidence, and we all just sit by and do nothing. America is working under the illusion that there is a system, but clearly if you have money and some political power in your back pocket, then you are exempt. This country is stagnating and it is only one charismatic leader away from losing it's democracy.

  7. #57
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Americans have become too complacent. Billions of tax dollars can just disappear, people can mysteriously die, and the elected officials can lie through their teeth and even destroy evidence, and we all just sit by and do nothing. America is working under the illusion that there is a system, but clearly if you have money and some political power in your back pocket, then you are exempt. This country is stagnating and it is only one charismatic leader away from losing it's democracy.
    I think it's a bit deeper than that. Most places in the world know that government isn't great... But the American system and culture are set up to see it only as a enemy, a reject... There is no purpose to it. Having this mindset changes the way people react to government... from a "This is wrong, let's make it work" to a "this is wrong, but what can you expect"? It's like living in dissonance - the emotional impact never reaches deep enough to prompt action of change.

    I'm not advocating French labour, or Korean strikes... but I don't think it's complacency exactly. When you expect to be sold out and see it happen, it just justifies your belief. This replaces any attempt to actually bring change.

    (IMO, and mostly just what I've watched from across the border... I'm honestly shocked about the acceptance level.)

  8. #58
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    I just watched Ron Paul on the Colbert Report. He is certainly inspirational for a Republican candidate. The irony is, he is probably the only candidate who could win it for the Republicans and he is the last one they would probably nominate.

  9. #59
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Haha, Kiddo. You made the mistake of mentioning companies that actually got the smackdown.

    You should have mentioned Microsoft or Halliburton.
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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Haha, Kiddo. You made the mistake of mentioning companies that actually got the smackdown.

    You should have mentioned Microsoft or Halliburton.
    Microsoft got smacked in Federal court over tying Internet Explorer into the OS and other anti-competitive behavior, though it's also true that the EU wore Gates's @ss for a hat in their courts. Microsoft deserved it and a good deal more besides.

    As for Halliburton, their day is probably coming. The tricky thing about Halliburton is that it's so close to the government. Having the feds go after Halliburton is going to feel to the prosecutors involved like dragging a brother-in-law into court.

    That's not a justification by any means, but rather an indictment. Halliburton has been a much-used instrument of the government. Said government will probably be reluctant to blunt its own tools.

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