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  1. #41
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I submit to you that, while in principle we all pay and we all receive services, we pay too high a price for the services we receive. The difference between what we pay and what the services actually cost is the overhead, which goes to sustain a burgeoning bureaucracy. If we continue to proliferate it we'll end up like poor substitute, being asked to bow and scrape for every parking space and driver's exam that comes down the pike.
    Hm... so bowing and scraping to get the insurance companies to grant you important hospital care is better? I agree you all pay too high a price for the services you receive, but the problem isn't the price, but what you receive. In fact I think most Americans would have benefited from much higher taxes if only the money was spent like it should (and if corporations and rich buggers weren't exempt from the tax raise). But then I come from the country Michael Moore wouldn't use in the final cut of Sicko because nobody would believe him, so I guess I'm a bit too biased and socialist for this discussion.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carebear View Post
    Hm... so bowing and scraping to get the insurance companies to grant you important hospital care is better? I agree you all pay too high a price for the services you receive, but the problem isn't the price, but what you receive.
    I'm sorry. I cannot see how this makes sense.

  3. #43
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Of the three things you've listed--public schools, hospitals, and military--two of the three are done demonstrably better by the private sector.
    In the studies I've seen (not American) this is disputed, especially since the private schools and hospitals only take the more profitable cases and attract the best competence and in practice only serves the bourgeoisie .

  4. #44
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I'm sorry. I cannot see how this makes sense.
    The sentences were unrelated and should have been separated. The first was about lack of free health care being a greater evil than a bothersome bureaucracy.

    The second was an attempt at stating that the real problem isn't the price you pay, but what you receive for the money, so maybe rather insist on more in return than insisting on paying less.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carebear View Post
    In the studies I've seen (not American) this is disputed, especially since the private schools and hospitals only take the more profitable cases and attract the best competence and in practice only serves the bourgeoisie .
    "bourgeoisie"...?

    Oh, I get it... you're waging the class war. Well, by all means get on with it then.

  6. #46
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
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    LOL. I warned you I was a bit socialist.

    Ok, I should have said "people with money". My point was that private schools and hospitals only serve people with money. Government run schools and hospitals will serve the poor as well.

  7. #47
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carebear View Post
    LOL. I warned you I was a bit socialist.

    Ok, I should have said "people with money". My point was that private schools and hospitals only serve people with money. Government run schools and hospitals will serve the poor as well.
    They will serve the poor... poorly.

    Look... in this country the government does most things badly. I've seen public education in fair detail, and I'm not impressed. The state-run schools are pretty much a farce compared to what's possible. They were pretty poor when I was in them, and they've only gotten worse since.

    And we've got our share of public housing, too. You don't particularly want to go there, but if you do go, don't go alone, and don't go at night. Go armed if you can, but truly your best option is to not go at all.

    Meanwhile, apologists for these programs tell us that the problems they have can all be solved if we only had more funding... but honestly, to me that looks like throwing good money after bad.

    So I come to this: Having had a good look at public education and public housing, I really have no interest in public health care, thanks.

  8. #48
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    They will serve the poor... poorly.
    I was expecting that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Look... in this country the government does most things badly. I've seen public education in fair detail, and I'm not impressed. The state-run schools are pretty much a farce compared to what's possible. They were pretty poor when I was in them, and they've only gotten worse since.
    Funding would explain that. If I'm not mistaken they had little funding to begin with and didn't exactly get a boost from GWB.

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    And we've got our share of public housing, too. You don't particularly want to go there, but if you do go, don't go alone, and don't go at night. Go armed if you can, but truly your best option is to not go at all.
    Extensive and long term programs could stand a fair chance at dealing with that. The alternative is letting these things fester and create more of the same, which can't possibly be good for anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Meanwhile, apologists for these programs tell us that the problems they have can all be solved if we only had more funding... but honestly, to me that looks like throwing good money after bad.
    If only it would have been possible to check their claims... see if any other country had tried something similar and what the results were... but no, honestly, better to follow gut instincts on that one.

    Ok, I'll stop trying to convince you. Maybe America is too big to create the social changes that several European countries have managed (but which countries like France seem to have bungled somewhat). And yes, done the wrong way it would definitely be a case of throwing good money after bad, but there are lots of examples of how it can be done with great success if the funding is given.

    The reason I even bother to voice my opinion is that I see some very negative developments in the US the last 20-40 years or so (worsening these last 10) that if left unchecked could potentially be very damaging for the US and by extension Europe. Write it off as Chomsky-ish drivel if you like, and like global warming the worst case scenarios might not come to pass, but as long as there is a potential, I'd focus more on looking for ways to fix it than deny it. If it does come to pass, poverty and social inequality will be one of the triggers.

  9. #49
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Yes... so it has. But we haven't seen it since the days of the robber barons of the railroads. Teddy Roosevelt belled that cat.
    Enron
    WorldCom
    Qwest


  10. #50
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Enron
    WorldCom
    Qwest

    ...All of whom were dragged into court for their crimes, and had key officers convicted and imprisoned.

    You're not really a robber baron unless you get away with it. Remember, my post was in response to mention of "untethered capitalism."

    The capitalism of the companies you mention is clearly tethered.

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