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  1. #81
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    What if it works, though?
    ROFLMAO

  2. #82
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    What if it works, though?
    What do you mean by "works"? Do you mean if it acheives a government capable of putting through an aegnda, or do you mean if it manages to put through an agenda which satisfies both parties?

    The first is possible but the second very unlikely. It would likely be more a case of the Lib Dems giving up their demands in return for token gestures, while helping the Tories to put through an agenda which the great majority of Lib Dem members and supporters oppose.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    On a wider point, the Conservatives may have won a plurality of votes but there are many things to consider -

    1.) the 52% who voted for Labour and the Lib Dems oppose the Conservatives much more than they oppose each other

    2.) Labour seats tend to be very densely populated, in urban areas, with much poorer demographics and therefore lower turnouts. Labour supporters tend to turn out to vote when there is a threat fo the Tories winning in that seat, but less so when there is not; while conservative voters, being more "educated" and being more spread out in different seats, tend to vote regardless. So in reality there are many more than the 6 million that voted for Labour, who do support them against the Tories (but who are so uninspired by Labours "Tory-lite" policies that they don't bother to vote for them).

    So I reiterate the fact that the Tories getting 36% is not comaprable to Blair winning with 36%. This is not a technical issue: Blair represented the centre-ground and the broad assumptions of his rule were accepted by most Lib Dems and even many Tories (I oppose those asusmptions btw so don't think I am defending him).

    On the other hand the 64% who voted against the Tories tend to truly despise them. Cameron does not represent the centre-ground, he represents a radical right-wing agenda which the great majority of British society has explicitly rejected.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  3. #83
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    What do you mean by "works"? Do you mean if it acheives a government capable of putting through an aegnda, or do you mean if it manages to put through an agenda which satisfies both parties?
    I mean "What if they are able to influence policy enough to make their presence felt in a serious way?"


    The first is possible but the second very unlikely. It would likely be more a case of the Lib Dems giving up their demands in return for token gestures, while helping the Tories to put through an agenda which the great majority of Lib Dem members and supporters oppose.
    Then they will feel the wrath of their rank and file at the next election, right?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    -----------------------------------------------------

    On a wider point, the Conservatives may have won a plurality of votes but there are many things to consider -

    1.) the 52% who voted for Labour and the Lib Dems oppose the Conservatives much more than they oppose each other
    Does that matter?


    2.) Labour seats tend to be very densely populated, in urban areas, with much poorer demographics and therefore lower turnouts. Labour supporters tend to turn out to vote when there is a threat fo the Tories winning in that seat, but less so when there is not; while conservative voters, being more "educated" and being more spread out in different seats, tend to vote regardless. So in reality there are many more than the 6 million that voted for Labour, who do support them against the Tories (but who are so uninspired by Labours "Tory-lite" policies that they don't bother to vote for them).
    That argument is laughable. So Labour is more "popular" but they don't get as many votes as they should because their constituency doesn't bother to vote? If they can't get enough people to vote for them, then they don't deserve to win. That is why we have elections.


    So I reiterate the fact that the Tories getting 36% is not comaprable to Blair winning with 36%. This is not a technical issue: Blair represented the centre-ground and the broad assumptions of his rule were accepted by most Lib Dems and even many Tories (I oppose those asusmptions btw so don't think I am defending him).

    On the other hand the 64% who voted against the Tories tend to truly despise them. Cameron does not represent the centre-ground, he represents a radical right-wing agenda which the great majority of British society has explicitly rejected.
    This is just biased political posturing.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  4. #84
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    I mean "What if they are able to influence policy enough to make their presence felt in a serious way?"
    The dealbreaker is Proportional Representation. 90% of Tories are oppsoed to this. The Conservative rank and file already sees Cameron as undemocratic internally and too liberal; and most of the Lib Dem rank and file is to the left of Clegg on this issue and many others. Today there was a protest of thousands outside the Lib Dem HQ demanding PR.

    It will be very hard for either side ot compromise on this issue.

    Does that matter?
    Of course.


    That argument is laughable. So Labour is more "popular" but they don't get as many votes as they should because their constituency doesn't bother to vote? If they can't get enough people to vote for them, then they don't deserve to win. That is why we have elections.
    And if the Tories can't get an overall majority, they don't deserve to win either. Voters elect MP's not a Prime Minister. And the majority of MP's elected were not Conservative.

    And yes, it is just a fact that the popular vote was skewed bythe fact that in safe seats, Labour voters don't bother to vote, because they quite rightly know it's a wasted vote (which shows up the undemocratic electoral system).


    This is just biased political posturing.
    It's not biased to political posturing, it's a correct analysis. The Tories radical right-wing agenda is simply not accepted by most people. If Cameron tries to rule as a minority, then London will be looking like Athens before too long.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  5. #85
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    I usually vote Green all the way, i voted Labour in this general (Green local) because i didn't want the Tories to get in. This is a sentiment shared by many but exercised by few.
    In short i agree with tcda regarding the Conservatives, they are very much despised by the majoirty who do not vote for them, including the people who don't vote at all.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  6. #86
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    A) If people don't bother to vote, then why should their opinions count for electoral purposes?

    B) How could a party be so "radically right-wing" if they receive more than 30% of the vote and 40% of the seats in Parliament? Are you saying the plurality of voters in England are radical right-wingers?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  7. #87
    The Unwieldy Clawed One Falcarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post


    The UK has single-seat districts; simply have a run-off election for the top two candidates of any district that fails to get a certain percentage (such as 50%) of the vote.
    It wasn't clear if you was on about a run-off at constituency level or if you meant there should run-off election between Cameron and Brown. But anyway, what would that achieve other than gerrymandering politics in favour of the Labour Party even more?


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm afraid you'd need to provide something to substantiate this since it just reads like bile, the UK has helped provide stability enough to the US first while Bush and the military-industrial complex where in control and the country almost became radically rudderless and ready to strike anywhere, and afterwards helped out immensely with the financial recovery, next to China the UK is probably the most important nation in the recovery. Would anyone in the US be able to identify either Clegg or Cameron from a picture?
    Firstly, Britain should be more worried sorting about its own backyard before it lecturing others. If it did it would not be in half the trouble it currently finds itself in.

    Secondly, what the hell does who Americans identify and recognise with got to do with what is best for Britain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    ...Was the labour party meant to be a socialist party? If you've read anything about socialism in the UK you'll know the idea was to permeate all parties with the ideas, the Labour party wasn't considered its natural home.
    What the hell are you on about?

    The Labour party was founded to bring together all left-wing organisations together, in order to give workers a voice. So how is a constitutionally democratic socialism party not meant to be a socialist party?
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassa View Post
    Oh our 3rd person reference to ourselves denotes nothing more than we realize we are epic characters on the forum.

    Narcissism, plain and simple.

  8. #88
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcarius View Post
    Secondly, what the hell does who Americans identify and recognise with got to do with what is best for Britain?
    This always confused me. At first I thought it only went one way (other countries --> US), but now it seems that other countries seem to expect these feelings to be reciprocated.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  9. #89
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Are you saying the plurality of voters in England are radical right-wingers?
    They just have short memories.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #90
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcarius View Post
    But anyway, what would that achieve other than gerrymandering politics in favour of the Labour Party even more?
    1.) Britain would retain single-member districts, thereby not diluting political accountability, while the representatives would represent a majority of the voting public rather than a slight plurality. This, in my opinion, is an accomplishment in itself, even if it hurts the Conservatives (the party I favor).

    2.) Fewer people tend to vote in run-offs, so this method would minimize the future electoral costs to the Conservatives (who have a more active voting base than other parties) of scrapping the FPTP system-which will probably happen in any event, so the Conservatives may as well cut their losses and propose a run-off system. If the Conservatives present the issue correctly, the Liberal Democrats may look like they are seeking crass political advantage rather than the good of the country if they refuse.

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