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  1. #61
    The Unwieldy Clawed One Falcarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Options 1 and 2 are the same. A Tory minority government would by definition need Lib Dem support on votes of confidence.
    Not necessarily, when one takes in to count the Unionists, who will almost certainly side with the Tories to some degree, and take away Sinn Fein. It will leave the Tories about five seats away from a majority and a seat to fight for at the end of the month. That should be enough to last this year out possibly longer.



    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    You forgot about the other option a Lib-Lab pact, possibly based on replacing Gordon Brown and a referendum on "electoral reform". Possibly followed shortly after by a new election.
    Not only would that still not be a majority, but it would be rather hard to sell a 'coalition of losers' to the public.


    Quote Originally Posted by 6.4 View Post
    What do you think is wrong with Brown? Genuinely curious, I'm not very good at politics. I like Brown, he seems smart and seems to have done well with the financial crisis...
    One could write whole books on Brown both as Chancellor and Prime Minster.


    His continuation of light-touch regulation created Britain fiscal problems. He transferred responsibility for banking supervision to the Financial Services Authority who clearly did not do their job, and he failed to realise this on his decade as Chancellor. Perhaps he was too busy opening Europe headquarters of Lehaman Brothers .


    He is a tax meddler, who has introduced over 60 new types of tax. In the process creating a even more complicated tax and benefit system. For example, a utterly bureaucratic means-testing process for tax credits that most recipients are unaware of their eligibility.

    He created unbalanced growth which was unsustainable and that concealed the unbalanced nature of the growth. By far the biggest contributor of economic growth has been consumers spending which lead to the ridiculous leaves of debit.

    Public Sector spending was inefficient because of the control freak top down management. The increased spending on public services from the longest period of sustained economic growth in UK history was dwindled. For example, the increased health spending has hardly improved services because it has been wasted on building polyclinics and extra layers of management rather than more doctors and equipment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassa View Post
    Oh our 3rd person reference to ourselves denotes nothing more than we realize we are epic characters on the forum.

    Narcissism, plain and simple.

  2. #62
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcarius View Post
    Rubbish, Gordon Brown is the most incompetent just as essentially British Conservative a prime minster since Anthony Eden as Tony Blair and that takes some doing. was only to be expected.
    Fixed

    Quote Originally Posted by Falcarius View Post
    What is the point of having a socialist party if it is run as if it were constitutionally a neo-conservative party?
    If they were intending to deprive the population of real choice to get them behind PR, it's a good way to go about it. Maybe the smaller parties infiltrated a few sympathisers into Millbank back in the 90's to help rewrite their policy documents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I was thinking about that today when someone was talking to me about the complete absence of conservatives in england and whales, their sister party in NI didnt even do very well.

    Its a uniquely english thing supporting and voting for the conservative party.
    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    Yeah, it's quite interesting when you look at the colours by country. Blue England.. very blue. But everywhere else, nope.
    It's embarassing, they actually won several whole seats in Wales this time round. Probably all the English failed social climbers who've been swarming here lately to take advantage of low house prices though

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    It's because we don't have lead in the water up here.
    There's a point. Lead isn't a particular problem here, but there's definitely a bit of Chernobyl fallout still seeping into the little mountain streams I should think. The water from up there gets piped to the Midlands too, which could explain a lot.


    Quote Originally Posted by 6.4 View Post
    One party wants to get rid of ID cards, one wants to keep them... What am I supposed to do with that? WHY should we have/not have ID cards?
    The reasons why we should have/not have them are essentially identical. They would allow the government of the day to comprehensively monitor, identify, and potentially control us to a much greater degree than is currently possible. We don't have the formal constitutional guarantees to stop them abusing that power that most democratic nations do and are better off not giving it to them in the first place; it will be extremely difficult to take back once conceeded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Falcarius View Post
    Not only would that still not be a majority, but it would be rather hard to sell a 'coalition of losers' to the public.
    They'd still have a considerably stronger popular mandate than the Conservatives, and not have to contend with the outright dislike and hostility of a large proportion of said public as they will, the more so if they underline their isolation by trying to go it alone or with the dubious aid of the DUP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Falcarius View Post
    Not necessarily, when one takes in to count the Unionists, who will almost certainly side with the Tories to some degree, and take away Sinn Fein. It will leave the Tories about five seats away from a majority and a seat to fight for at the end of the month. That should be enough to last this year out possibly longer.
    Still not an actual majority, and see my earlier post for why I think this could backfire if they try to rely on it. The last thing a struggling government with little credibility needs is a resumption of NI hostilities.


    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Ummm, wouldn't the party that finished first overall have more legitimacy to try to form a government with the party that finished third than does the party who finished second? Wouldn't it be the height of naivete for a Lib Dem voter not to consider a coalition with the Tories if the Tories were polling highest of all? In Continental Europe, green parties ally with center-right parties, and liberal parties ally with center-left parties and all sorts of weird things happen.
    This isn't continental Europe, I wish that Americans could get this idea out of their heads before commenting. It's far more significant that the Conservatives are highly unpopular with all other shades of political opinion for their past misdeeds and present show of arrogance, so the smaller parties are much less willing to work with them than Labour. It would actually be a big strategic error for the LibDems, and highly unpopular with many of their core supporters, if they caved in and took the fig leaf of a few token concessions and cabinet seats.

    They essentially have both main parties over a barrel, and have the opportunity of a political lifetime to transform their popular support into long term power by continuing to push for meaningful concessions on PR, which if sucessful would put them on equal terms with the other two parties at a national level. They've been pushing for this long enough and Labour are seemingly more willing to give it to them, which is probably what they want more than anything at this stage. Any short term gains they may make by aligning themselves with the Conservatives is likely to result in continued long term pain for the party in the absence of genuine PR concessions, and a slide into irrelevancy once the adminstration ends and they continue being unable to translate their votes into a proportionate number of seats.
    Look into my avatar. Look deep into my avatar...

  3. #63
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcarius View Post
    How would a run-off system be introduce in a non-presidential system?


    The UK has single-seat districts; simply have a run-off election for the top two candidates of any district that fails to get a certain percentage (such as 50%) of the vote.

  4. #64
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    This isn't continental Europe, I wish that Americans could get this idea out of their heads before commenting. It's far more significant that the Conservatives are highly unpopular with all other shades of political opinion for their past misdeeds and present show of arrogance, so the smaller parties are much less willing to work with them than Labour. It would actually be a big strategic error for the LibDems, and highly unpopular with many of their core supporters, if they caved in and took the fig leaf of a few token concessions and cabinet seats.
    So the party that won the most seats is actually the most unpopular, and they are "arrogant" for wanting to form a government? Wow, you really aren't even trying to be evenhanded. As for the Lib Dems, why shouldn't they form a coalition if it will be positive for them? You think they should go with Labour because they might get proportional representation through. Why shouldn't they go with the Tories if they are going to influence policy and get cabinet posts?


    They essentially have both main parties over a barrel, and have the opportunity of a political lifetime to transform their popular support into long term power by continuing to push for meaningful concessions on PR, which if sucessful would put them on equal terms with the other two parties at a national level. They've been pushing for this long enough and Labour are seemingly more willing to give it to them, which is probably what they want more than anything at this stage. Any short term gains they may make by aligning themselves with the Conservatives is likely to result in continued long term pain for the party in the absence of genuine PR concessions, and a slide into irrelevancy once the adminstration ends and they continue being unable to translate their votes into a proportionate number of seats.
    Or they might end up doing themselves a favor by moderating the Tories a bit and coming off like a proper liberal, centrist alternative.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #65
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcarius View Post
    Rubbish, Gordon Brown is the most incompetent British prime minster since Anthony Eden and that takes some doing. His premiership has be a complete and utter failure whether he has a ''international profile'' or not. What exactly do you expect Labour supporters to think of a man who led the party to one of its most devastating results ever?

    .
    Actually Brown has done a phenominal job of managing the recceton. In comparisions to what was expected to happen and in comparision to previous reccetion - this one was a unbleievably well manged. If you look at the fiscal possition 2 years ago, the reccetionw as suppose to be worse than the 1920s - this never materialised. Instead of buggaring around with import exports like they did in the 70's he cut straight to the problem an stimulated the high street which in turn has shown great seeds of improvment.

    I'm not keen on him for other reasons but incompotence isn't it. He did also come in off the heel of Tony Balir a particualrly charismatic leader.

  6. #66
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Ummm, wouldn't the party that finished first overall have more legitimacy to try to form a government with the party that finished third than does the party who finished second? Wouldn't it be the height of naivete for a Lib Dem voter not to consider a coalition with the Tories if the Tories were polling highest of all? In Continental Europe, green parties ally with center-right parties, and liberal parties ally with center-left parties and all sorts of weird things happen.
    it doesn't work like that, f there is no clear majority you can't oust the previous guy.... this is probably the strangest part of the whole election porcess. If Gordon Brown can broker a deal with the other parties to form a vote of confidence when Parliment is opened then he is still PM.

    The lack of a clear outcome screams volumes about lack of clear opinion vis a vis who is leader. Cameron has not been a strong enough contender to convince people.



    Someone a good few post back asked about public opinion towards proportional representation - the really issue is that it's not really known. Tory's wouldn't do well out of it, Libs only do margainally better and Labour often would do considerably better. I suspect if it goes to a referendum (which HAS been offered by Brown) then the public will say, the issue is the proportion of the referendum that need to say yes in order of it to happen. Sometimes the pass mark is set higher than 50%. The Labour party impressed the hell out of me when they held refrendums on the Scottish and Welsh Parliment.

  7. #67
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    for a pointless comment, every time I see the thread title I think it says A Well Hung Parlaiment

    :
    I agree much more ingteresting untill you realise that they are almost all serious grey belters.....

    Actually Nick Clegg is a bit of a hottie

  8. #68
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    So the party that won the most seats is actually the most unpopular, and they are "arrogant" for wanting to form a government? Wow, you really aren't even trying to be evenhanded. As for the Lib Dems, why shouldn't they form a coalition if it will be positive for them? You think they should go with Labour because they might get proportional representation through. Why shouldn't they go with the Tories if they are going to influence policy and get cabinet posts?

    Actualy the Tories wouldn't be the MOST unpopular, but they are not far off it in real terms - so your point above may be a bit bugus. when you look at the proportion of the overall vote the Tories never do well. It's not a policial perspective just fact.

    Big clashes between Tories and Liberals is political perspectives around electroral reform policy and Europe.

    There are fewere clashes between Libs and Lab - who would be up for electoral reform, and have more similaries in policy and botha re OK wth Europe... hence they are closer together politically.

  9. #69
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    So the party that won the most seats is actually the most unpopular, and they are "arrogant" for wanting to form a government? Wow, you really aren't even trying to be evenhanded. As for the Lib Dems, why shouldn't they form a coalition if it will be positive for them? You think they should go with Labour because they might get proportional representation through. Why shouldn't they go with the Tories if they are going to influence policy and get cabinet posts?
    Most Liberal voters understand their party to be closer to Labour than the Tories and would vote for it in the expectation that, above all, they are keeping the conservatives out.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  10. #70
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Not necessarily, when one takes in to count the Unionists, who will almost certainly side with the Tories to some degree, and take away Sinn Fein. It will leave the Tories about five seats away from a majority and a seat to fight for at the end of the month. That should be enough to last this year out possibly longer.
    But how could they pass votes of confidence without majority support?

    Not only would that still not be a majority, but it would be rather hard to sell a 'coalition of losers' to the public.
    True. It will also be hard to sell a minority government, especially considering their hardline agenda which will make Thatcher look like Ted Heath. Swings and roundabouts.

    His continuation of light-touch regulation created Britain fiscal problems. He transferred responsibility for banking supervision to the Financial Services Authority who clearly did not do their job, and he failed to realise this on his decade as Chancellor. Perhaps he was too busy opening Europe headquarters of Lehaman Brothers .
    Yes ebcause the Conservatives are famous for their tight regulation of finance capital.

    He created unbalanced growth which was unsustainable and that concealed the unbalanced nature of the growth. By far the biggest contributor of economic growth has been consumers spending which lead to the ridiculous leaves of debit.
    He didn't "create" this though did he? There was a post-Thatcherite economic consensus built on this basis and the foundations for it were laid under Thatcher.

    I'm not excusing Brown at all but this is pure hypocrisy.

    Public Sector spending was inefficient because of the control freak top down management. The increased spending on public services from the longest period of sustained economic growth in UK history was dwindled. For example, the increased health spending has hardly improved services because it has been wasted on building polyclinics and extra layers of management rather than more doctors and equipment.
    This is true, the contracting of private firms to permit the expansion of the public sector is a fraud, clearly. But what is the Tories answer? To simply do the same thing but with less emphasis on employment and expanding the public service and greater emphasis on cutting back and privatizing the already existing services and jobs.

    I agree completely with attacking Labour on this but in no way does that lead to supporting the Conservatives who are even worse.

    The solution is to nationalize the banks without compensation and take back the money gien to them, to bring the troops back from Afghanistan, and to use all this misspent wealth on defending existing public services and public employment.

    I campaigned for the Trade Union and Socialist Coallition and found that nearly everyone agrees with this (of course when it comes to voting they understandably tend to still vote Labour in order to keep out the Tories).
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

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