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  1. #121
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    That sure was the case in the UK this time, no idea why so many people opted for the party that's going to reduce the prospects of their getting a job or benefits or even relief from the present tax burden.
    Read my second response to tcda; I was referring to participation in the electoral process, not the decision concerning who one votes for.

  2. #122
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    1.) Take the Republican party*, for example; its widely recognized as a broad-based political coalition that, in the aggregate, advocates economic, foreign policy, social, and constitutional "conservatism"-Republican voters do not necessarily support all of the party platform, but they deem the policy trade-offs to be worth it, if they can advance priorities that opposing coalitions (namely the Democratic party) explicitly oppose. The key is that voters know going into the voting booth which combination of policies the Republican coalition advocates. Under PR systems, with a larger number of parties comprised of a narrower political base, the voters would not know which policies will be sidelined when the party of their choice forms a governing coalition with one or more rival parties, and after the vote they would have no input regarding the make-up of the governing coalition.
    Conversely you could argue that PR can give people more power over parties because it means the big parties are less garuanteed peoples votes, and therefore can betray less.

    More to the point though I think PR is just a basic democratic demand - parliament should genuienly reflect the popular vote.

    Corrupt parties will abuse PR just as they abuse FPTP - I don't think the Repubs or Dems are any more democratic than the Christian Demcorats or the SDP of Germany, sorry.

    The only difference that matters to me is that a principled party will benefit more from PR than from FPTP. Regarding the corruption of the establishment parties, I think it relates to other issues and it's not my interest to find ways to ever-so-slightly lessen it via changing the voting system.

    2.) In the event that there are only three candidates, and the candidate of one's choice is unpopular in one's district, then I think voting for the lesser of two evils as a second choice through the AV system is preferable to the electoral alternatives.
    what if I think they are equally bad? Why should we be forced to legitimize one of them? whichever way you spin it, that is undemocratic.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  3. #123
    The Unwieldy Clawed One Falcarius's Avatar
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    Falcarius' favourite quote of the election:

    ''Lib Dems entering government with the Tories will be "like vegetarians who've got jobs at McDonald's - they'll be chewed up and spat out", Labour MP Stephen Pound on Sky News.




    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Michael Moynihan criticizes the Tories' campaign strategy here:

    Opinion: Lesson from the U.K. -- How Not to Win an Election - AOL News
    While it is true the Conservative Party polices under Cameron are mostly political spin, as pointed out in that funny video by the Labour Party from the other year. The author at best has extreme selective memory and at worst he is a propagandist . For example, he did not even mention why William Hague epic failed the 2001 election. He also seems to assume the average Briton is a conservative, which is clearly not the case.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassa View Post
    Oh our 3rd person reference to ourselves denotes nothing more than we realize we are epic characters on the forum.

    Narcissism, plain and simple.

  4. #124
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcarius View Post
    Falcarius' favourite quote of the election:

    ''Lib Dems entering government with the Tories will be "like vegetarians who've got jobs at McDonald's - they'll be chewed up and spat out", Labour MP Stephen Pound on Sky News.
    Where is the joke? There are definitely vegetarians who work at McDonald's. They certainly don't get "chewed up and spat out." The wordplay is nonsensical.


    While it is true the Conservative Party polices under Cameron are mostly political spin, as pointed out in that funny video by the Labour Party from the other year. The author at best has extreme selective memory and at worst he is a propagandist . For example, he did not even mention why William Hague epic failed the 2001 election. He also seems to assume the average Briton is a conservative, which is clearly not the case.
    No, Moynihan is not assuming any such thing. He is proposing that the Tories aren't emphasizing their free-market bona fides nearly enough. He also seems to be suggesting that much of the current crop AREN'T bona fide fiscal conservatives.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #125
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    More to the point though I think PR is just a basic democratic demand - parliament should genuienly reflect the popular vote.

    The only difference that matters to me is that a principled party will benefit more from PR than from FPTP.
    1.) Under PR, the popular vote is only reflected in the initial results, not the governing coalition the comes into place afterwords; majority-vote single-member districts allows the popular vote to determine the governing coalition itself.

    2.) That's fair enough, I care much more about accountability and local control.
    Last edited by lowtech redneck; 05-11-2010 at 11:40 PM. Reason: clarification

  6. #126
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    I'm pissed off. So pissed off that I've gone to my "last resort" - finding a blog comment box to rant in. Possibly all night. In the way taxi drivers rant.

    The last time I did that was over a year ago. Bad times.

    LOL

  7. #127
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    The new English PM looks good.
    Usually English PMs look butt ugly.

  8. #128
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Tonight the UK 1% toasts the end of the NHS. I expect a Poll Tax before this government ends.
    You don't pay your community charge then?

  9. #129
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Where is the joke? There are definitely vegetarians who work at McDonald's. They certainly don't get "chewed up and spat out." The wordplay is nonsensical.

    .
    Yea the proportion of vegitarian products sold in McD's in the UK are oober tiny like 1% (veggies avoid it because they think that McD's has shakey food providence and sustainability issues) hence it's perceived as a very carniverous type enviroment.

    Massive difference between how the brad is perceived in the US versus various global markets - facinating to look at how the different cultures respond to it.... Presumably they had one hell of a job getting established in France.

  10. #130
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curzon View Post
    Off Topic
    The new English PM looks good.
    Usually English PMs look butt ugly.
    Cameron (his wife is absolutely stunning)? Balir wasn't too horrific, but Cleggg is definately do-able

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