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  1. #31
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Maybe just all abortion-minded women.
    Fascism is cool like that.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  2. #32
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    Nobody's saying "yay, an abortion!" It's simply not that simple.
    Actually, you're wrong. Abortion is a quite profitable industry. Recently, our local Planned Parenthood director made national talk show appearances to tell her story after she quit under pressure from her superiors to solicit more abortions.

    I don't discount the circumstances that lead to women considering abortion, but to paint the picture of every woman as a desperate individual that has to be rescued from her horrid circumstances by the saintly "reproductive services clinic" that just wants to help her escape her desperate circumstance is not realistic.

    I don't question your principles, kelric. And there are a lot of people who believe as you do, but sadly the abortion issue IS political, it IS economical, and it is a war where people don't play fair. I could hope for fairness and understanding, but I have enough evidence to see that it isn't gonna happen, so my alternative is to choose a side. And if I have to do that, I'm going to choose the side of life, even if I don't always like the methods that side uses.

    (And no, before some idiot says it, that does NOT mean I advocate violence to abortion doctors/planned parenthood workers.)
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

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  3. #33
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    I don't discount the circumstances that lead to women considering abortion, but to paint the picture of every woman as a desperate individual that has to be rescued from her horrid circumstances by the saintly "reproductive services clinic" that just wants to help her escape her desperate circumstance is not realistic.
    Hmm? What is this nonsense?

    (And no, before some idiot says it, that does NOT mean I advocate violence to abortion doctors/planned parenthood workers.)
    No one was going to, I think.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  4. #34
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    Nobody's saying "yay, an abortion!" It's simply not that simple.
    Actually, you're wrong. Abortion is a quite profitable industry. Recently, our local Planned Parenthood director made national talk show appearances to tell her story after she quit under pressure from her superiors to solicit more abortions.
    Unfortunately there are people who prey on the misfortunes of others in all areas of life. I do believe, however, that view is in the *extreme* minority among those who are against the criminalization of abortion, and probably even more so in the minority when it comes to women who are in the position of having to consider one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    but sadly the abortion issue IS political, it IS economical, and it is a war where people don't play fair.
    I'd say that it's more political than economical (if you're looking to get rich as a doctor, there are clearly more lucrative specialties -- yet there are fewer polarizing, distract-from-actual-elected-official performance hot-button topics in politics). Don't get me wrong - I'm clearly in the pro-choice camp - it seems to me the clear choice on an admittedly no-win gray topic.

    But the biggest problem that I have with the tactics employed by these recent propositions in Oklahoma is that they specifically violate ethics that protect people on a larger scale. That is, they allow and even encourage physicians to violate both their professional ethics to tell patients the truth, and the confidentiality of medical history. Pressing the tactics of dishonesty, intimidation, and fear to get people to act in a way that goes against their own judgment (and would tend to discourage them from getting legitimate medical treatment and/or advice ) is most definitely a step in the wrong direction.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  5. #35
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Actually, you're wrong. Abortion is a quite profitable industry. Recently, our local Planned Parenthood director made national talk show appearances to tell her story after she quit under pressure from her superiors to solicit more abortions.

    I don't discount the circumstances that lead to women considering abortion, but to paint the picture of every woman as a desperate individual that has to be rescued from her horrid circumstances by the saintly "reproductive services clinic" that just wants to help her escape her desperate circumstance is not realistic.
    Absolutely it's an economic and politic issue - unfortunately this tends to happen with moral issues, since many people have (heated) differences in opinion as to how much morality should be legally regulated, particularly when not everyone shares the same moral beliefs to begin with.

    However, this doesn't invalidate the (strongly represented) opinion that women have a right to have this degree of control over their reproductive capacity, any more than it invalidates your (also strongly represented) opinion that women shouldn't.

    The issue that we're discussing in this (second article) case is that despite a law saying that a woman DOES have this choice (regardless of the debate surrounding it), the state has decided to use scare tactics in an arguably juvenile fashion, to embarrass women out of having an abortion.

    Or in the first article, depriving women of their right to have accurate medical information about their children!

    This is not an abortion debate necessarily, it's a debate over whether the state should be using these tactics to prevent women from a legal procedure.
    -end of thread-

  6. #36
    Senior Member Daedalus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dahlila View Post
    Regardless of one's stance on abortion we all should agree this law is ridiculous, with potentially fatal ramifications. Parents deserve to be informed on the health of their children. If a doctor refused to diagnose a child and the parents deliver somewhere with inadequate prenatal care the child could very likely die. Parents need the opportunity to get a support group and medical care lined up for their new child. Lying to parents doesn't make sense from a Pro-Life or Pro-Choice standpoint.

    I totally agree!
    The last thing we want is to have the right for information taken away on the pretext of some twisted "moral" worldview or another. god..whats happening to this country...it seems to be going to hell in a handbasket!
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  7. #37
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    The issue that we're discussing in this (second article) case is that despite a law saying that a woman DOES have this choice (regardless of the debate surrounding it), the state has decided to use scare tactics in an arguably juvenile fashion, to embarrass women out of having an abortion.
    So..accepting your premise here - if it works, then you have saved the lives of children, at a cost of....embarrassment.

    I know, if given the choice of death vs. embarrassment, which one I'd choose.
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

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  8. #38
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    So..accepting your premise here - if it works, then you have saved the lives of children, at a cost of....embarrassment.

    I know, if given the choice of death vs. embarrassment, which one I'd choose.
    Jeffster, you are a silly willy. Why did you not respond to my comment in which I called you a fascist? I was hoping you would...

    Anyways, back to the point. The tactic being used here, is unfair and completely immoral; If you wish to deny this statement, then please do so with reason and logic founded in something other than what Jeff 'feels'. Honestly, Jeff, the way you feel about abortion matters very little, and the way you think America should be run matters very little, as the rights and priveleges of Americans, as a whole, will take the stage front and center.

    Please, let's be reasonable now. These little shadow attacks are for pussies and sore losers. I'd rather see people like you voicing their opinion honestly in am attempt to pass honest laws.

    No one has time for this absurd, under the table, bullshit.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  9. #39
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    So..accepting your premise here - if it works, then you have saved the lives of children, at a cost of....embarrassment.

    I know, if given the choice of death vs. embarrassment, which one I'd choose.
    As you know, there are differing opinions on the matter, and the government is here choosing to overtly support women's rights in this area while underhandedly using questionable tactics to discourage them.

    It's the method not the end result. Would you still agree if the proposed law was that instead, anyone not having an abortion would have the same details posted publicly, so we could keep tabs on the teen moms? If the goal was to embarrass young teens into aborting rather than receiving unwanted attention?
    -end of thread-

  10. #40
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    On a related note, a new law in the same state:

    New Oklahoma Law Will Put Details Of All Abortions Online - Oklahoma abortion website - Jezebel

    They're really trying to scare women out of Oklahoma, sheesh.
    I wonder how many privacy laws this violates. I know specific information is withheld, but that's not the only way privacy can be breached (at least in an ethical sense, if not legal).
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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