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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
    -There are about 9 million construction worker in the US.

    -Approx. 400,000 illegal immigrants are construction workers. (22% of all construction workers)
    Those numbers don't add up.

  2. #82
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Those numbers don't add up.

    Yeah, it was late. The numbers will never add up because I'm using statistics from a variety of sources and then rounding them up so that I don't have to use .5%s, is this unkosher? Either way, the point was: There are 400,000 illegal laborers in the country and over 1 million underemployed/unemployed legal construction workers. Eliminating IA's would free up a hefty percentage of those 400,000 jobs. It's getting to the point where legals are beginning to severly underbid on contracts, which brings the cost for land developers and homeowners down. That means that people who once made $1500-2500 per week are willing to take 50%(or more) pay cuts just to have work.

    One example: I was bidding on a painting contract last month for painting the interior walls, trim and doors of a 2200 sq ft house. My bid was extremely low at $880(normally this would cost around $1600 + materials) but I was underbid by $380(which is what most people pay to have a medium sized living room painted). This happens quite often and may contribute to the aggressive hatred towards certain ethnicities that some of the poorer contractors seem to be developing.

    That's only one real life example from an area where tourist/retiree-driven construction has made up the bulk of the regional economy.

    15% of construction workers are IA, 22% of IA are construction laborers and there were approx. 9 million construction workers(including skilled tradesmen and self-employed/independent contractors).
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  3. #83
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    As long as there is a capitalist system in place, workers will always be exploited.

    Yes, I brought in Marx. Or Stalin. Or [fill in the blank].

    The thing is, and I'm not saying this is you Marduk, but people who criticize illegal immigration or plain don't like illegal immigrants often employ them or second hand employ them. Undocumented workers are cheap later and can be found in the service industry, construction, and landscaping.

    I'm surprised I haven't heard more about people demanding that large stores and chains use only labor from "legals".
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

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  4. #84
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    As long as there is a capitalist system in place, workers will always be exploited.

    Yes, I brought in Marx. Or Stalin. Or [fill in the blank].
    A communist telling you that he will save you from exploitation is no different than a crusader telling you he will save your soul.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    As long as there is a capitalist system in place, workers will always be exploited.
    ...but the same is also true of a great many other kinds of systems.

    I think it's safest just to say "workers will always be exploited."

  6. #86
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    As long as there is a capitalist system in place, workers will always be exploited.

    Yes, I brought in Marx. Or Stalin. Or [fill in the blank].

    The thing is, and I'm not saying this is you Marduk, but people who criticize illegal immigration or plain don't like illegal immigrants often employ them or second hand employ them. Undocumented workers are cheap later and can be found in the service industry, construction, and landscaping.

    I'm surprised I haven't heard more about people demanding that large stores and chains use only labor from "legals".
    Workers will be exploited no matter what economic system they're living under. Perhaps the manner in which they are exploited may be different under a marxist or stalinist economic model, but they are, have been and always will be exploited.

    Employers who hire illegals tend to be against amnesty and for illegal immigration. Amnesty would hurt their profits, illegal immigration by itself won't.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  7. #87
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    So we have NAFTA in place where capital is able to move freely across borders with little restriction, but labor cannot. US agricultural conglomerates dump cheap corn in Mexico, devastating small farmers there who then come across the border for work-- hey, not our fuckin problem. Nor is it our problem when our country has the IMF and World Bank pressure Mexico to privatize various industries, sending more people flooding across the border. US employers exploit illegal immigrants for cheap labor and the most they have to worry about is a meager fine, while the people they employ have their houses raided and are left to languish in jail while awaiting deportation. And US workers lose out too, due to depressed wages and runaway capital/manufacturing.

    But let's blame it all on the poor schlubs coming across the border for work-- yep, all seems totally fair to me. If they complain it's just "playing the race card"

  8. #88
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    A communist telling you that he will save you from exploitation is no different than a crusader telling you he will save your soul.
    ...especially when his intentions are to become a state capitalist. Which is the intention of most so-called "communists".

    The problem with Marxism-Leninism is that there cannot be a revolutionary vanguard, because they're inevitably wolves in sheep's clothing.

  9. #89
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    The main breakdown in Marx's whole idea was the part with the dictatorship of the proletariat. I find it especially fascinating since Marx is basically the father of conflict theory in sociology. His own ideas of how humanity works should have made it obvious to him that the dictatorship would no disassemble the way he had hoped.

    I suppose maybe he wanted to believe it, so badly that he over-powered his own knowledge to preserve that belief.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  10. #90
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Some Guy View Post
    So we have NAFTA in place where capital is able to move freely across borders with little restriction, but labor cannot. US agricultural conglomerates dump cheap corn in Mexico, devastating small farmers there who then come across the border for work-- hey, not our fuckin problem. Nor is it our problem when our country has the IMF and World Bank pressure Mexico to privatize various industries, sending more people flooding across the border. US employers exploit illegal immigrants for cheap labor and the most they have to worry about is a meager fine, while the people they employ have their houses raided and are left to languish in jail while awaiting deportation. And US workers lose out too, due to depressed wages and runaway capital/manufacturing.

    But let's blame it all on the poor schlubs coming across the border for work-- yep, all seems totally fair to me. If they complain it's just "playing the race card"
    So we should blame the poorest working americans who, btw, tend to be anti-nafta, anti-imf, anti-world bank?

    Blame the unemployed because they should know better than to work for no less than minimum wage?

    Blame the politicians?

    Blame everyone except the people who are coming here illegally? Have you ever traveled outside of your country?

    Do you know what happens when you are caught in another country without a passport?

    Do woven baskets really make great mother's day gifts?

    Sometimes, when I'm in the mood, I tell myself that one consequence of allowing people to come here and work illegally is that our quality of life will nose dive, probably hitting the concrete in our unfilled pools, literally, figuratively.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


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