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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    They list many traditionalist Catholic organizations as hate groups, for instance. And Rushton is currently a professor at the University of Western Ontario. I am not going to defend his research, as I haven't gone over his studies at all, but I know he has been accused of giving aid to racists by studying intelligence and race. I have never heard of his actually being a member of a White Nationalist or Nazi movement. The onus would be on you to provide that material. I can't prove a negative here. And why would I have to say with certainty that other people affiliated are racists? That has NO bearing whatsoever regarding the rightness or wrongness of legislation. Just because a racist supports something doesn't mean that thing is bad automatically. Racists supported health care reform, and racists attacked health care reform. Does that affect whether it was a good idea? Of course not. The whole line of posting reeks of ad hominem.
    If your organization provides funds to white nationalists, it's safe to say you either agree with it or are neutral on it. Most organizations wouldn't want that taint associated with them. As for racists making laws, it does matter when it concerns their prejudices specifically. It's naive to think everyone can separate their personal feelings from the actions they take.



    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Stupid fucking eastern block "ungrammatical speech impediment" ruining my cover :steam:




    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I'm not surprised that you went to private schools. You seem pretty elitist and judgemental, despite your supposed devotion to eradicating inequality. I've found that this isn't unusual in upper and upper-middle class people who go around squawking racism.

    I love how you call it "low class."

    And, no, absorbing hostility and hatred toward whites on a constant basis isn't just because I don't understand how it feels to be black...it really swings too much in the other direction. Racism goes both ways. It's fashionable to hate white people these days, and prejudice against working class Southerners seems to be the last acceptable form of bigotry. The fact that so many people are incapable of examining that as a seperate issue (or illegal immigration as a seperate issue from being racially Mexican) makes me wonder about the intelligence of many academics and intellectuals. In the past year I've really been starting to perceive a ridiculous knee-jerk bias that borders on religious brainwashing.
    I'm also Japanese, gay, and converting to Judaism. I'd add female, but you are too. Do you really want to get into the oppression olympics? I've never said that I'm blind to the privilege I've received from class, but that doesn't mean I don't know what the rest feels like. Not to mention, I hate racism. Period. It's not just America, but I happen to be a citizen of this country. This specific racism affects me directly.

    I don't agree with prejudice coming from anyone, on any level. However, calling out the racism of ethnic minorities directed towards whites isn't the same as what some white people do to everyone that isn't. The one reason being, power. Minorities can be racist to you in personal interactions, but they don't have the power to affect your life on every level. Especially where it counts most, which would be institutional (housing, education, and employment).

    If you have the funds you can always move to a predominantly white neighborhood, and escape whatever persecution you might feel on a daily basis. The same can't be said for minorities, regardless of where they live.

    I agree that immigration is a problem, and it needs to be taken care of. Yet, I don't think what Arizona is doing is without racism.

    Do you realize April is confederate pride month? Anyway, calling out poor white people and their lack of sophistication is really just another way to put the blame in the wrong place. The real problem is rich whites and how they mold society.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Should we also apply this reasoning to science?
    You're right. The comparison is wrong.

    However, it's true that there are low standards for teachers in this country. I've no doubt that in AZ the preference would be for white teachers, whether they have an accent that prevents all students from understanding them or even a great grasp on grammar. Public education is a landfill.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    If your organization provides funds to white nationalists, it's safe to say you either agree with it or are neutral on it. Most organizations wouldn't want that taint associated with them. As for racists making laws, it does matter when it concerns their prejudices specifically. It's naive to think everyone can separate their personal feelings from the actions they take.
    Did receiving money from Pioneer Fund make Charles Murray a racist? You're painting dozens of different people and organizations with the same brush. You should investigate this topic further yourself.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    You're right. The comparison is wrong.

    However, it's true that there are low standards for teachers in this country. I've no doubt that in AZ the preference would be for white teachers, whether they have an accent that prevents all students from understanding them or even a great grasp on grammar. Public education is a landfill.
    I'm not so sure that the preference is for white teachers as it is for "NOT Mexican teachers who are teaching Mexican-accented English to illegal Mexican immigrant children." That seems to be the hubbub right now. BTW, are any of my fellow Californians following the GOP gubernatorial primary? It's been pretty dirty with the commercials thus far, and the few clean ones I've seen consist mostly of Steve Poizner claiming that curbing illegal immigration in CA will do wonders for the budget. TREMENDOUS red herring. You know what will do wonders for the budget? Not spending more money than you take in, asshole!
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Did receiving money from Pioneer Fund make Charles Murray a racist? You're painting dozens of different people and organizations with the same brush. You should investigate this topic further yourself.
    The leader of this organization can be racist or neutral, and provide money to both candidates that are racist or neutral. An anti-racist wouldn't want to be associated with it though, based on principal alone.

    Aside from that, it's not the only white nationalist/nazi connection. There are a few.



    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I'm not so sure that the preference is for white teachers as it is for "NOT Mexican teachers who are teaching Mexican-accented English to illegal Mexican immigrant children." That seems to be the hubbub right now. BTW, are any of my fellow Californians following the GOP gubernatorial primary? It's been pretty dirty with the commercials thus far, and the few clean ones I've seen consist mostly of Steve Poizner claiming that curbing illegal immigration in CA will do wonders for the budget. TREMENDOUS red herring. You know what will do wonders for the budget? Not spending more money than you take in, asshole!
    Do you really know what the racial climate is like in Arizona? It's been bad for years. Google Arizona and racial profiling. The emphasis is on Mexicans, no doubt. Yet, with the banning of ALL ETHNIC studies it becomes more about us (white americans) versus them (the rest of us, american or not).

    It's short-sighted to not see the long term implications of what this will do.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    The leader of this organization can be racist or neutral, and provide money to both candidates that are racist or neutral. An anti-racist wouldn't want to be associated with it though, based on principal alone.
    Then how do you explain Charles Murray? He is a pretty anti-racist dude with two biracial children. Again, you're really painting with a wide brush. Academic research, like business or politics, makes strange bedfellows.


    Aside from that, it's not the only white nationalist/nazi connection. There are a few.
    This isn't very convincing.


    Do you really know what the racial climate is like in Arizona? It's been bad for years. Google Arizona and racial profiling. The emphasis is on Mexicans, no doubt. Yet, with the banning of ALL ETHNIC studies it becomes more about us (white americans) versus them (the rest of us, american or not).

    It's short-sighted to not see the long term implications of what this will do.
    That seems a bit alarmist to me. There is nothing wrong with getting rid of separate Ethnic Studies classes if you are making an effort to make the general history/social studies classes more inclusive. Supporting that isn't racist in the least.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  7. #87
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    So what exactly is an "ethnic studies" class and why is it being taught in schools and not the cultures one belongs to?

    This is my question.



  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Then how do you explain Charles Murray? He is a pretty anti-racist dude with two biracial children. Again, you're really painting with a wide brush. Academic research, like business or politics, makes strange bedfellows.

    This isn't very convincing.

    That seems a bit alarmist to me. There is nothing wrong with getting rid of separate Ethnic Studies classes if you are making an effort to make the general history/social studies classes more inclusive. Supporting that isn't racist in the least.
    Having minority children, family members, friends, and lovers doesn't mean you can't also be racist/prejudice/bias. By the way, you're focusing on one guy. There are a few associated with this organization alone, that identify as white nationalists/separatists or people that have general racist views.

    They equate "ethnic" classes with treason. You can't really believe anything more inclusive is going to be done.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    So what exactly is an "ethnic studies" class and why is it being taught in schools and not the cultures one belongs to?

    This is my question.
    Well, they actually are being taught to the culture we belong to - by we, I mean American. Similar to the way 'gender studies' studies society, history, politics, economics, religion, etc. through the lens of gender. It's studying a topic to account for a perspective or subject that has been previously either ignored or inaccurately portrayed.

    Ethnic studies can cover the larger global diaspora or be chained geographically (example - the Caribbean) or linguistically (example - Spanish) but ultimately is often meant to help better understand your particular current context as an American in America.

    If there was a class taught on the Asian-American Experience in Canada or Contemporary Issues Facing Indigenous Australians, it might fall under 'Ethnic Studies' in the college class index but more likely it would ALSO fall under a variety of other headings as well including sociology, cultural studies, anthropology, etc.

    Here's a wiki article

    And a link to the grand dame of Ethnic Studies Departments

    I think as far as 'ethnic studies' in elementary to high school - the bill is probably targeting teaching anything about Mexico in any history or geography class. Which for a state like Arizona means you are missing a huge chunk of the state's own history and making Mexican Americans seem even more foreign and alien to 'indigenous AZ culture and society'. Kind of a clever way to encourage historical amnesia amongst other things.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

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  10. #90
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    Can Arizona Afford Immigration Law?

    Arizona's harsh new immigration law has taken quite a beating in the past week.

    President Obama has called it “misguided” and promised to keep an eye on it. Attorney General Eric Holder said the federal government may challenge the law. Calls for boycott are multiplying, threatening to stagnate Arizona’s already weakened economy.

    But maybe the state's lawmakers should see all these potential obstacles as a blessing. Because the truth is, Arizona may not be able to afford this law anyway.

    No detailed estimate of the new law's costs has yet been calculated, but the Immigration Policy Center’s blog, Immigration Impact, did dig out a revealing fact sheet that was put together by Yuma County Sheriff Ralph Ogden back in 2006, when a similar bill was passed (only to be vetoed by then Governor Janet Napolitano).

    It estimated that just for Yuma alone, one of 15 Arizona counties, enforcement of the law would require at least $20 million -- and that the news costs could actually reach close to $100 million. Compare that to the money Gov. Jan Brewer, who signed the new law last Friday, has allocated for local law enforcement in the whole state: $10 million dollars of federal stimulus money. (Keep in mind that Arizona has a state deficit of more than $3 billion.)

    * Continue reading

    Sheriff Ogden's fact sheet broke down the new costs thusly:

    · Between $775,880 and $1,163,820 in processing expenses for law enforcement agencies (with the availability of officers for other needs also reduced by 12 per cent)

    · Jail costs that would range from $21,195,600 to $96,086,720

    · Attorney and staff fees of between $810,067 and $1,620,134

    This isn't counting extra jail beds, hiring extra cops, lawsuits that may arise (there are some already on the way).

    But maybe the law is good for the economy in the long run? Conservatives have argued that foreign workers not only take American jobs but also lower wages. By this logic, if the law succeeds in chasing illegal immigrants from Arizona, leaving only the native, better-educated workers, wages will increase, and ready workers will pile up.

    It's not that simple, though. The problem, according to Judith Gans of the Immigration Policy Project at the University of Arizona, is that in some sectors of the economy, 45 percent of workers are foreign-born, with many of them here illegaly. (Figures from a Pew Hispanic Center study show that, countrywide, 29 percent of the foreign-born in 2005 were unauthorized – Arizona has 500,000 of that 29.)

    “If an industry loses 30 to 40 percent [of their workers]," Gans told Salon, " certain sectors of the economy would have some serious labor problems.”

    Industries would shrink because increased wages would cause companies to hire less, and the price of products would go up -- with the added cost heaped onto the consumer. And those 500,000 illegal immigrants (and plenty of legal citizens who don’t like the idea of being randomly asked for their papers) will leave, taking their tax dollars with them.

    “If things get too unpleasant in Arizona,” says Gans, “foreign workers will go to another state.”

    The Arizona Chamber of Commerce has pronounced itself neutral on the law and the Arizona Office of Tourism is not giving any interviews. But in a statement to The Arizona Republic today, the state’s hotel & lodging association said six groups have canceled meeting or convention plans, with reservations ranging from 20 to 120 rooms. If that doesn’t cause too much of a pang, maybe we should remember the early 1990s boycott of the state for not recognizing the Martin Luther King holiday -- which cost Arizona more than $300 million.

    A “Don’t Boycott Arizona” Facebook page is pleading with consumers to not punish the whole state because of a law their governor signed. But the state’s economic troubles as a result of the law may lie deeper than that.

    Can Arizona really afford this immigration law? - Immigration - Salon.com
    Oh, Arizona. What a long racist history you have.

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