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  1. #21
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    I would wager to say that in my Literature class book, almost none of the modern authors are white men. However, this is only a guess, it might be presumptive of me to think that someone by the name of "Emily Bavangadoss" is not a white male.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  2. #22
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Racism of some sort has perhaps existed throughout civilization (much harder to say about society before civilization). However, what we typically think of as racism today is rather distinctive and a relatively recent phenomenon which mostly can be attributed to The Enlightenment and then the industrial age.

    Like Levi-Strauss said, race is the original sin of anthropology.
    My question was leading. I know that it is not only a modern concept. To believe so is to have some sort of fairy tale view of history that is simply not accurate. Humans have always been aware of the physical differences between groups and exploited this to their advantage.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    Other countries have nothing to do with Arizona being racist. Keep the conversation on topic.

    What I mean by white/European history is the view is going to be from one side only. When you take classes on other cultures/countries you may get the chance to understand that very same event from a non-white or minority point of view. This may no longer be the case in Arizona. As for Mexican American history, if you look into it more that's exactly the type of education they want to get rid of.

    It's naive to think American history is objective history. Who writes it and where it comes from has a very big effect on how it is perceived, what bias is included, and how it's distributed. An example, conservatives recently won the vote on textbook standards. They want to change the fact that it was racist to put the Japanese (2/3rds of whom were American citizens) into concentration camps during WWII into a more benign excuse. They also want to change the founding fathers' stance on a secular government.

    The point regarding George Bush is, someone that stupid became president. The bar is set much lower for teachers, and I have no doubt being white will play the most important role regardless of whether they're good teachers or not.

    As for whites not being allowed segregation:

    Thank you.. That is all good. But I subscribe to the point that it is still counter productive. The goal to me is, creating a place where everybody feels comfortable, regardless of race. The goal should be the Human race and it's unity, not it's segregation on minor cultural and physical differences.
    I am not saying I am unaware of the reality of the situation. Humanity on the whole is not very enlightened.
    But Right know the world is in a very tit for tat mindframe as far as racisim goes and it's counter productive to goal of unity. It's like fucking to preserve virginity, or fighting intolerance with intolerance. It's a latteral move at best.

    When people Identify with being a Human Being before identfying with a sub group of the whole I will be happy.
    So that is why I believe most equality laws are no better than the things they are supposed to be protecting people against.
    I realize it's outside of the box, but meh!!

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Thank you.. That is all good. But I subscribe to the point that it is still counter productive. The goal to me is, creating a place where everybody feels comfortable, regardless of race. The goal should be the Human race and it's unity, not it's segregation on minor cultural and physical differences.
    How does having classes on other ethnic groups/cultures/religions segregate people? How many Japanese people do you think take a Japanese language or culture class? Really, it's a great class for white people to get together and share their interest in another country other than their own.

    Let's say things are "equal", what history/culture/language should be taught to everyone? How would you decide that? Is that what Arizona is doing? Or is Arizona really asking everyone that isn't white to assimilate?

    I agree with your overall message (I fervently dislike my birth country for their racism too), but what Arizona is putting into place has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH MAKING PEOPLE FEEL EQUAL OR COMFORTABLE.

  5. #25
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    If Nazi sympathizers had a hand in this bill, do you think it's fair and balanced? Or you know, is there an agenda. And if so, why is this policy of getting rid of everything "ethnic" suddenly being put into place right now?

    Given the authors of this law, no one should be surprised about its intended targets. The law was drafted by a lawyer for the legal arm of the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), whose founder has warned of a “Latin onslaught” and complained about Latinos’ alleged low “educability.” FAIR has accepted $1.2 million from the Pioneer Fund, a racist foundation that was set up by Nazi sympathizers to fund studies of eugenics, the science of selective breeding to produce a “better” race. The legislation was sponsored by state Senator Russell Pearce, who once e-mailed an anti-Semitic article from the neo-Nazi National Alliance website to supporters.

    Arizona Immigration Law Violates Constitution, Guarantees Racial Profiling | Southern Poverty Law Center
    The Rachel Maddow Show - Racist roots of Arizona's immigration law
    The Rachel Maddow Show - Post-Show Factcheck: Dan Stein of FAIR

  6. #26
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    My question was leading. I know that it is not only a modern concept. To believe so is to have some sort of fairy tale view of history that is simply not accurate. Humans have always been aware of the physical differences between groups and exploited this to their advantage.
    Well, it's true that nobody suddenly decided to invent racism one day, and perhaps it sounded strange that 01011010 said racism was "created", but what is true is that everywhere I can think of, the standards of racism were laid down by an elite minority. Racism does work to their advantage as 01011010 said. It is a social tool more than an inherent impulse. It is more memetic than genetic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Thank you.. That is all good. But I subscribe to the point that it is still counter productive. The goal to me is, creating a place where everybody feels comfortable, regardless of race. The goal should be the Human race and it's unity, not it's segregation on minor cultural and physical differences.
    I am not saying I am unaware of the reality of the situation. Humanity on the whole is not very enlightened.
    But Right know the world is in a very tit for tat mindframe as far as racisim goes and it's counter productive to goal of unity. It's like fucking to preserve virginity, or fighting intolerance with intolerance. It's a latteral move at best.

    When people Identify with being a Human Being before identfying with a sub group of the whole I will be happy.
    So that is why I believe most equality laws are no better than the things they are supposed to be protecting people against.
    I realize it's outside of the box, but meh!!
    I think you're missing the point here, that the system as it is, is one that makes ethnic minorities feel uncomfortable. The ethnic classes are an attempt to counter-act that. The fact that any white person feels uncomfortable about that is pretty sad. What threat are you really faced with?

    I think it would also be nice if we could put all of this pluralism out of the way and identifiy as a species, but talk about jumping the gun. That would be incredibly hard to do, and as I said, letting the system be decided by the dominant group aone will not make that happen.

    I for one seem to be one of the only peopl in America that does not people cultural identity is and end in itself, or it's own good. I frankly find it pretty pointless, even counter-productive. That's a universal statement though. That means I'm not going to use that point only to question these ethnicity driven classes, I'm also going to use that poin ask why any white person thinks they should ethnicity classes of their own.
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  7. #27
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Well, it's true that nobody suddenly decided to invent racism one day, and perhaps it sounded strange that 01011010 said racism was "created", but what is true is that everywhere I can think of, the standards of racism were laid down by an elite minority. Racism does work to their advantage as 01011010 said. It is a social tool more than an inherent impulse. It is more memetic than genetic.
    If it wasn't race, it would be something else. That is genetic.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #28
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    Or is Arizona really asking everyone that isn't white to assimilate?
    Or do "ethnic studies" classes generally have the effect (intended or otherwise) of promoting cultural separatism and feelings of victimhood among current minority groups? This entire debate revolves around whether one thinks its best to promote a "melting pot" identity in which cross-assimilation through integration and inter-marriage and through a shared set of civic loyalties and ideals is best, or whether promoting a "salad-bowl" identity is best.

    That said, the apparent "no accent" agenda is retarded and at least as divisive as the promotion of "ethnic studies" in primary and secondary school.
    Last edited by lowtech redneck; 05-01-2010 at 04:21 PM. Reason: more to add

  9. #29
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    If Nazi sympathizers had a hand in this bill, do you think it's fair and balanced? Or you know, is there an agenda. And if so, why is this policy of getting rid of everything "ethnic" suddenly being put into place right now?



    The Rachel Maddow Show - Racist roots of Arizona's immigration law
    The Rachel Maddow Show - Post-Show Factcheck: Dan Stein of FAIR

    The Pioneer Fund was set up in the '30s and it's run by J. Phillippe Rushton. He is actually not a Nazi, but his views on race are troubling. The Pioneer Fund has provided money for major sociological work like The Bell Curve, though. The Southern Poverty Law Center is too free with their labeling of some organizations as hate groups. And Rachel Maddow is pretty silly.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #30
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Or do "ethnic studies" classes generally have the effect (intended or otherwise) of promoting cultural separatism and feelings of victimhood among current minority groups? This entire debate revolves around whether one thinks its best to promote a "melting pot" identity in which cross-assimilation through integration and inter-marriage and through a shared set of civic loyalties and ideals is best, or whether promoting a "salad-bowl" identity is best.

    That said, the apparent "no accent" agenda is retarded and at least as divisive as the promotion of "ethnic studies" in primary and secondary school.
    If they got more inclusive history books for primary and secondary schools it wouldn't really be a problem- our history books looked primarily at white men and our teacher had to drag up supplimental information for us to know what was going on with other groups at the time at all... ethnic studies in college is great! I took a good number of classes in that category and didn't feel the slightest bit marginalized just because I'm white
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

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