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  1. #171
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Actually...that site is pretty funny!

    The irony(?) is I'm pretty sure a lot of white people also enjoy that site. I highly doubt it was a small army of people of color soley who shot that website to fame and got it published into book form.
    Um, the guy who does it is white, right? I mean, that site seems aimed at a specific type of white person, not minorities so much.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  2. #172
    Aquaria mrcockburn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    - In Arizona.

    Oh, you crajee, crajee state. You are far, faaaaaar too close to my beloved CA for my liking.

    And who beat you up as a kid? What happened to you???? Stop the hate!

    Original article here

    The 'no accents' policy refers to those to teachers of English.
    I'm totally against banning ethnic studies, because classically, history has always been taught in an European/American point of view. Probably not to be "racist", but that's what's familiar and what was always done.

    As for the accented teachers, they should NOT be teaching English. Where I go to university, too many of the professors have accents that are so thick, they're impossible to understand, and it 100% impedes learning. In my Accounting class, my prof had such a thick Chinese accent, people had to constantly raise their hands and ask what word she said. It took me forever to figure out what "Izids" meant, until I realized that's how she pronounced "assets". :steam:

    These people are the last people who should be TEACHING English, as the oral component is just as important, if not more so, than the written.

  3. #173
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    American Citizen Faced Deportation

    A Chicago man who spent the weekend in jail and faced deportation on suspicion he is in the country illegally said what happened to him illustrates the need for America to change the way it deals with immigration.

    Eduardo Caraballo said his self-described nightmare began last week when he was arrested in connection with a stolen car case. He maintains his innocence and says the car case is still being investigated, but says the real problems began when his mother posted his bail Friday.

    Instead of being released, he was told by authorities that Immigration and Customs Enforcement was detaining him because he was an illegal immigrant.

    "That's crazy. Because I was born in Puerto Rico. I never knew that Puerto Rico wasn't part of the United States," the 32-year-old said Monday.

    Caraballo said he repeatedly told officers that he was born in Puerto Rico and therefore an American citizen. His mother also presented his birth certificate, but despite that and his state-issued ID, officials told him he was facing deportation.

    "I'm pretty sure they know that Puerto Ricans are citizens, but just because of the way I look -- I have Mexican features -- they pretty much assumed that my papers were fake," he said. "They were making me feel like I can't voice my opinion or I can't even speak for myself to let them know that I am a citizen."

    He says officers asked him specific questions about the Caribbean island that he could not answer, mostly because he moved to the mainland when he was 8 months old and has only been back to Puerto Rico once since birth.

    Almost three days later, and after his mother contacted Rep. Luis Gutierrez's office, immigration officials released Caraballo at about 2 p.m. Monday.

    And now, Gutierrez, who's fighting for national immigration reform, wants answers.

    "You know what this proves to you? That in Arizona, they want everybody to be able to prove they're legally in the country. They want everybody to prove that they're an American citizen. Here we had an American citizen, that the federal government, not state authorities, but the federal government, with all their technology and all their information capacity that they have, could not determine, for more than three days, his status as an American citizen. It's very, very, very dangerous ground to tread," the Chicago Democrat said.

    The Immigration and Customs Enforcement Office declined to answer specific questions about Caraballo's case, but in a statement released Monday afternoon said that he was released once his citizenship was confirmed.

    Caraballo said he is considering legal action and hopes his story is a lesson.

    "Immigrations should analyze the way they judge people. They can't just judge people by their color or their features, by the way they look, they should actually investigate thoroughly, and they should do that before they put the hold on somebody," he said.
    American Citizen Faced Deportation | NBC Chicago

  4. #174
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    The FAIR Files: ‘Criminals, Homosexuals and Defectives’

    The Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) is an immigration restriction organization that insists that it does not “discriminate against any person on the basis of race, color, or creed.” But many have questioned that claim since revelations that FAIR’s legal arm essentially wrote the highly controversial Arizona law that critics say is certain to lead to racial profiling of Latinos.

    Now comes another clue to the true nature of the organization behind the Arizona statute, which requires law enforcement officials to verify the immigration status of people they come into contact with if there is reasonable suspicion that they are in the country illegally. Critics, including the Southern Poverty Law Center, have pointed out the law will lead to Latinos, including U.S. citizens, being repeatedly questioned by police and forced to continually prove their status.

    FAIR files archived in the Gelman Library at George Washington University include a Jan. 9, 1990, note from Sidney Rawitz, then a board member of the Immigration Reform Law Institute (IRLI), FAIR’s legal arm. Rawitz, who once served as counsel to the government’s Immigration and Naturalization Service, was reacting angrily to an apparently overly favorable news story discussing the Cubans who came to Miami in 1980 during the Mariel boatlift. Rawitz was writing to Richard “Dick” Higgins, who was then IRLI’s executive director.

    “What infuriates me most about this article is the use of Marielitos as examples of beneficial immigration,” Rawitz wrote to the IRLI leader. “There are facts and statistics galore about the criminals, homosexuals and defectives whom Castro visited upon this country when he opened up Mariel. Prisons, hospitals, and welfare rolls are heavily burdened by this influx — as you well know.”

    Quite apart from Rawitz’s eyebrow-raising description of “criminals, homosexuals and defectives” — a phrase eerily reminiscent of the Nazis’ descriptions of their own enemies — the note revealed a high level of ignorance on the IRLI board member’s part a full decade after the boatlift. Although there was much publicity during the boatlift suggesting that the Marielitos were serious criminals being dumped in the United States by Cuban leader Fidel Castro, the reality is that only about 2%, or some 2,746, of the 125,000 refugees were ultimately determined to be serious or violent criminals. Large numbers, in fact, were simply people who disagreed with aspects of the Castro regime. Economist David Carr also found that the boatlift entailed no negative effect on wages for any groups in Miami.

    In recent years, IRLI has been active in helping to write anti-immigrant legislation for both states and localities. IRLI attorney Kris Kobach was a prime mover behind harsh ordinances in Farmer’s Branch, Texas, and Hazleton, Penn., among other places, that essentially punish those who aid undocumented immigrants. Kobach also was a key drafter of the new Arizona law.

    Rawitz is far from the only FAIR official (IRLI is merely a program of FAIR, not a legally separate entity) to make disparaging comments about dark-skinned immigrants. For instance, FAIR President Dan Stein, who has long been part of IRLI’s governance structure, said in 1997 that “[i]mmigrants don’t come all church-loving, freedom-loving, God-fearing. Some of them firmly believe in socialist or redistributist [sic] ideas. Many of them hate America, hate everything the United States stands for. Talk to some of these Central Americans.”

    John Tanton, the founder of FAIR and a current board member of the group, wrote in a 1993 letter, “I’ve come to the point of view that for European-American society and culture to persist requires a European-American majority, and a clear one at that.” The SPLC has listed FAIR as a hate group since 2007 for reasons that are summarized here.

    The FAIR Files: ‘Criminals, Homosexuals and Defectives’ | Hatewatch | Southern Poverty Law Center
    FAIR's founder who is now on the board of directors is a white supremacist. I don't think these kinds of people should have an influence on immigration laws. The founder isn't the only white supremacist/separatist/nationalist affiliated with this organization. See link below.

    t r u t h o u t | Rachel Maddow: FAIR's Relationship With Arizona's Immigration Law (VIDEO)

  5. #175
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    FAIR's founder who is now on the board of directors is a white supremacist. I don't think these kinds of people should have an influence on immigration laws. The founder isn't the only white supremacist/separatist/nationalist affiliated with this organization. See link below.

    t r u t h o u t | Rachel Maddow: FAIR's Relationship With Arizona's Immigration Law (VIDEO)

    I don't doubt that many people in FAIR are white supremacists, but you NEED to stop using Rachel Maddow's show as your source for these things. She is a liar and a smear artist who is disproved on the reg.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #176
    I am Sofa King!!! kendoiwan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I don't doubt that many people in FAIR are white supremacists, but you NEED to stop using Rachel Maddow's show as your source for these things. She is a liar and a smear artist who is disproved on the reg.
    Not to butt in on a convo I haven't followed, and don't really have a position on at present, but Maddow's credibility is meaningless to the credibility of the claim itself. It can either be verified or disproven on it's own merits.

    /spends way too much time at intpcentral... damned fallacies!
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1161526

    "They the type of cats who pollute the whole shoreline. Have it purified. Sell it for a $1.25"

  7. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by kendoiwan View Post
    Not to butt in on a convo I haven't followed, and don't really have a position on at present, but Maddow's credibility is meaningless to the credibility of the claim itself. It can either be verified or disproven on it's own merits.

    /spends way too much time at intpcentral... damned fallacies!
    You're right regarding individual claims, but this is about a pattern of someone citing a bad source with regularity. That isn't fallacious to point out. In fact, it's not even a debate point. It's a friendly suggestion for someone who may be receiving bad information.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I don't doubt that many people in FAIR are white supremacists, but you NEED to stop using Rachel Maddow's show as your source for these things. She is a liar and a smear artist who is disproved on the reg.
    I don't know about who she is as a person, but the FAIR president smeared himself in their interview. Then she fact checked him, of which the sources were all mentioned so other people can see for themselves.

    Discredit her statements and body of work, instead of her person. It really comes off as if you're trying to divert attention from the issues.

  9. #179
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcockburn View Post
    I'm totally against banning ethnic studies, because classically, history has always been taught in an European/American point of view. Probably not to be "racist", but that's what's familiar and what was always done.

    As for the accented teachers, they should NOT be teaching English. Where I go to university, too many of the professors have accents that are so thick, they're impossible to understand, and it 100% impedes learning. In my Accounting class, my prof had such a thick Chinese accent, people had to constantly raise their hands and ask what word she said. It took me forever to figure out what "Izids" meant, until I realized that's how she pronounced "assets". :steam:

    These people are the last people who should be TEACHING English, as the oral component is just as important, if not more so, than the written.
    LOL, I wrote about this before but I see the grain of truth in not wanting people with "wrong" (<--loaded word) accents teaching English lest they transmit their accent to others in learning.

    As far as not being able to understand...

    You know, maybe it's because I'm bilingual myself and grew up in the bay area and have now lived in DC a long time - but there are so many ways of speaking English like you couldn't believe.

    I generally have an easier time understanding people across the board when they speak English regardless of their accent. I'm not sure why, I think my background has a little to do with it, but that can't be the sole reason because many other bilingual kids and ESL kids can only understand the 'standard' accent of English. In fact, I think usually 'second language speakers' have a much harder time hearing and understanding non standard accents than native speakers. For instance, when I studied Spanish, one of the really southern accents was waaaay too fast and slurred for me, couldn't understand a word. That ability to understand 'difference accents' is part of your own competency with and mastery of the language.

    I think part of communication is listening skills and active listening. And flexing. Part of English fluency and comprehension and mastery is understanding others when they speak with an accent different from what you are accustomed to. If I study a second language such as French or Spanish but I *only* understand Standard Parisian or Standard Northern Castilian, I can't say I am truly fluent or fully functional in the language.

    Ditto for English.

    I honestly think some people's ears have become lazy because they're stuck in a very narrow rut. Even slight variations to the norm are incomprehensible. This goes for both 'ideas' and 'lifestyles' as well as 'accents'.

    I remember the yard duty lady in the 4th grade who was African-American. She told me and my Chinese-American classmate how the women in the school office could not understand her. She had to ask several times for "a glass of wat-ah" and they did not get it. We both told her we very clearly heard her ask for "water". Even as a child I thought it was obvious just from the context "I want a glass of [something that starts with a 'W' sound]" that she was asking for water.

    I think sometimes people get stuck on the shock of hearing a different accent instead of concentrating on what is actually being said and rolling with it. It's like "OMG THIS PERSON IS A FOREIGNER/DIFFERENT/ALIEN" and the mind stops actively trying to compute. Further, I think part of that 'shock' is actually indignation or a sub/conscious decision on some level to REJECT that accent and refuse to acknowledge the message or the speaker.

    In your example, I understand the frustration. There are definite cases of people with VERY thick accents that you can't intuitively guess as easily what they are saying. It is helpful at the beginning of those classes for the teacher to be aware of their biggest 'trouble words' and go over it with the class somehow (teachers can find a way to do this and work it into the lesson on the sly)

    However, overall, I just can't buy into the idea that it's only people who speak English with with an accent that need to shape up or are "the problem". I truly believe Americans (of all stripes) need to learn to listen better and that is part of our own cultural and linguistic fluency.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

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  10. #180
    Aquaria mrcockburn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    LOL, I wrote about this before but I see the grain of truth in not wanting people with "wrong" (<--loaded word) accents teaching English lest they transmit their accent to others in learning.

    As far as not being able to understand...

    You know, maybe it's because I'm bilingual myself and grew up in the bay area and have now lived in DC a long time - but there are so many ways of speaking English like you couldn't believe.

    I generally have an easier time understanding people across the board when they speak English regardless of their accent. I'm not sure why, I think my background has a little to do with it, but that can't be the sole reason because many other bilingual kids and ESL kids can only understand the 'standard' accent of English. In fact, I think usually 'second language speakers' have a much harder time hearing and understanding non standard accents than native speakers. For instance, when I studied Spanish, one of the really southern accents was waaaay too fast and slurred for me, couldn't understand a word. That ability to understand 'difference accents' is part of your own competency with and mastery of the language.

    I think part of communication is listening skills and active listening. And flexing. Part of English fluency and comprehension and mastery is understanding others when they speak with an accent different from what you are accustomed to. If I study a second language such as French or Spanish but I *only* understand Standard Parisian or Standard Northern Castilian, I can't say I am truly fluent or fully functional in the language.

    Ditto for English.

    I honestly think some people's ears have become lazy because they're stuck in a very narrow rut. Even slight variations to the norm are incomprehensible. This goes for both 'ideas' and 'lifestyles' as well as 'accents'.

    I remember the yard duty lady in the 4th grade who was African-American. She told me and my Chinese-American classmate how the women in the school office could not understand her. She had to ask several times for "a glass of wat-ah" and they did not get it. We both told her we very clearly heard her ask for "water". Even as a child I thought it was obvious just from the context "I want a glass of [something that starts with a 'W' sound]" that she was asking for water.

    I think sometimes people get stuck on the shock of hearing a different accent instead of concentrating on what is actually being said and rolling with it. It's like "OMG THIS PERSON IS A FOREIGNER/DIFFERENT/ALIEN" and the mind stops actively trying to compute. Further, I think part of that 'shock' is actually indignation or a sub/conscious decision on some level to REJECT that accent and refuse to acknowledge the message or the speaker.

    In your example, I understand the frustration. There are definite cases of people with VERY thick accents that you can't intuitively guess as easily what they are saying. It is helpful at the beginning of those classes for the teacher to be aware of their biggest 'trouble words' and go over it with the class somehow (teachers can find a way to do this and work it into the lesson on the sly)

    However, overall, I just can't buy into the idea that it's only people who speak English with with an accent that need to shape up or are "the problem". I truly believe Americans (of all stripes) need to learn to listen better and that is part of our own cultural and linguistic fluency.
    When I'm trying to learn a new subject, I can't focus on deciphering her speech. I'm trying to digest the topic being taught. I understand the necessity of acclimating to a variety of English dialects, but Accounting 501 is not the place to have to learn how to do it. You're fortunate that you have flexible ears, but as you said, not everyone does. Education should not benefit only those fluent in Chinglish.

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