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  1. #111
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I took there to be a lot of implicit resentment in those statements, underestimation of the problems minorities have, and a sort of imprecision in your statements that lead me to assume you were talking about a lot more than natives on reservations.
    You don't have much evidence to support your assumption. And even if all of this is true, that does not mean that she blames minorities rather than the elites.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #112
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    That's a bit of an over generalization. There are more than a few minorities with very good options, and I myself life in a ghetto XD

    However, native americans have a special situation... many live on reserves designed specifically for them because they WANT to be isolated and maintain their culture and traditions. Problem is, they get shoved such ridiculous amounts of money (there was a gas tax refund sent to native americans a few years ago where children who were like age 5 were given THOUSANDS of dollars in rebates they'd never possibly earned, just because they lived on a reserve), but have nowhere to spend it because they get everything so cheap or not having to pay at all. If yeu give someone thousands of dollars and nowheres to spend it, chances are they're going to abuse it. And if yeu get a large enough number of people abusing it in a community, they'll foster doing so to the others in that community as well.

    Native americans are sadly a self perpetuating case because they are actively forcing themselves into that position; the ones who leave the reservations generally do quite well for themselves that I've seen. The ones who stay in their isolated locations though, have created for themselves a culture of depravity flat out BECAUSE of the aid they receive. The worst thing anyone could've done is throw money at them... and that's exactly whot we did.

    Worst part is that noone's particularly concerned because they're breeding themselves out of existance. It's estimated that within 100 years it won't be physically possible to claim native american descent because noone will be capable of being born more than the 1/32nd requirement of lineage.

    Regardless, my point is that, despite being about as white as they come... I don't feel particularly privileged. In fact, I'm at a noticeable disadvantage in schooling, finances, job security, and job finding. I don't see where this "white oppression" comes in if it doesn't actually benefit the white population in the process.

    I will have to go to greater lengths to get a job, more effort to maintain the job, greater skill and aptitude and work ethic to get the same pay, and have to struggle just to afford schooling and am provided none of the aid that someone in my same situation who was a more visable minority would receive.

    I'm about the lowest on the totem pole there is right now, unless I was male. That's about the only way to sink any farther. I live in a ghetto, I make nil for money, I have to work harder and longer just to even get the job in the first place. How is this a privilege? XD

    If I'm going to be branded as being oppressing, I'd at least like to see some of the benefits for such... it's not much good to be called such horrid things with all evidence pointing to the exact opposite.




    EDIT: Then again I'm in canada and things're different in relation to immigration here than in the states. Canada has a declining population, the only way it sustains itself is through immigration. There's a ton of concessions and benefits to maintain such.

    The states, on the other hand, does tend to seem to be alot more of the "WE'RE #1! Anyone who wants to live here OWES us!" mentality.
    Umm....I don't know how different Canada is from the US, but this characterization of reservations seems reallly off. I don't think people choose to live in abject poverty with limited to no opportunities for education and advancement because of pride or ethnic clannishness. Indigenous people in Canada and the US were placed on reservations not because the native people WANTED to be placed on reservations but because there was no other "choice". They are a conquered and displaced people.

    And I don't understand how, if indigenous 'card carrying' tribal members on reservations are receiving so much free money that as a class of people they could still live in abject poverty or need to turn to casinos or creating tourist attractions at the Grand Canyon. to survive as a group.

    Alcoholism amongst indigenous people is kinda a legacy of 'the white man' and is generally prevalent amongst the poor and underclass, regardless of race or color.

    The poorest people in America (again, not sure about Canada) are Native Americans, I believe statistically the poorest of the poor live on reservations in South Dakota. Though yes, there is a lot of variety in relative wealth amongst different nations (the terms preferred over 'tribe'), generally the ones with the casinos are the wealthiest.

    Perhaps it's slightly different in Canada, but considering the shared history of the landmass, I can't believe it's much different. Reservations are part of a legacy of war and discrimination against native peoples, with treaties being honored only when it's convenient for the US (Canadian?) governments, and the sovereignty of native government and even basic land rights are always threatened whenever a US/Canadian government or business interest takes wants something.

    So basically...yeah, it seems disingenuous to say indigenous people (or any race of people) CHOSE to live on reservations or that they enjoy living in poverty with rampant alcoholism and higher infant mortality rates and shorter estimated life spans purely because of "choice" and they prefer being with their own.

    When you see this ^^ it's almost always because people got pushed out, not because they elected of free will to go.
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  3. #113
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    *bump*

    Latest news:

    Arizona gov. signs bill targeting ethnic studies - Yahoo! News

    PHOENIX – Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer has signed a bill targeting a school district's ethnic studies program, hours after a report by United Nations human rights experts condemned the measure.

    State schools chief Tom Horne, who has pushed the bill for years, said he believes the Tucson school district's Mexican-American studies program teaches Latino students that they are oppressed by white people.

    Public schools should not be encouraging students to resent a particular race, he said.

    "It's just like the old South, and it's long past time that we prohibited it," Horne said.

    Brewer's signature on the bill Tuesday comes less than a month after she signed the nation's toughest crackdown on illegal immigration — a move that ignited international backlash amid charges the measure would encourage racial profiling of Hispanics. The governor has said profiling will not be tolerated.

    The measure signed Tuesday prohibits classes that advocate ethnic solidarity, that are designed primarily for students of a particular race or that promote resentment toward a certain ethnic group.

    The Tucson Unified School District program offers specialized courses in African-American, Mexican-American and Native-American studies that focus on history and literature and include information about the influence of a particular ethnic group. For example, in the Mexican-American Studies program, an American history course explores the role of Hispanics in the Vietnam War, and a literature course emphasizes Latino authors.

    Horne, a Republican running for attorney general, said the program promotes "ethnic chauvinism" and racial resentment toward whites while segregating students by race. He's been trying to restrict it ever since he learned that Hispanic civil rights activist Dolores Huerta told students in 2006 that "Republicans hate Latinos."

    District officials said the program doesn't promote resentment, and they believe it would comply with the new law.

    The measure doesn't prohibit classes that teach about the history of a particular ethnic group, as long as the course is open to all students and doesn't promote ethnic solidarity or resentment.

    About 1,500 students at six high schools are enrolled in the Tucson district's program. Elementary and middle school students also are exposed to the ethnic studies curriculum. The district is 56 percent Hispanic, with nearly 31,000 Latino students. Sean Arce, director of the district's Mexican-American Studies program, said last month that students perform better in school if they see in the curriculum people who look like them.

    "It's a highly engaging program that we have, and it's unfortunate that the state Legislature would go so far as to censor these classes," he said.

    Six UN human rights experts released a statement earlier Tuesday saying all people have the right to learn about their own cultural and linguistic heritage, they said.

    Brewer spokesman Paul Senseman didn't directly address the UN criticism, but said Brewer supports the bill's goal.

    "The governor believes ... public school students should be taught to treat and value each other as individuals and not be taught to resent or hate other races or classes of people," Senseman said.

    Arce could not immediately be reached after Brewer signed the bill late Tuesday.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

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  4. #114
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Maybe I missed something??

    The article talks about a law that seems to be designed to promote equality and unity for ALL.

    As for teaching a language, I am not sure legislation is required, but it makes sense that one ought to be able to properly pronounce the words they are trying to teach. This is no way reflects the intelligence of a person or how well they know a language. Pronunciation is integral in meaning and mispronunciation can change the meaning of a word.
    I like clean sheets on my bed VS I like clean shits on my bed.

    Also I know the "TH" sound is awkward for many tongues and not used sound in most languages. But it is still part of English and It makes sense if someone is teaching me to say "the" instead of "Da" or "Ze/Za".
    The Iberian origin of "th" is the same in Castilian and in English. It used to be well represented in Scandinavian dialects before 1350. It is still in Icelandic. The Scandinavian immigration to Finland prior to 1350 transformed Finnish: "th" was adopted. The new Scandinavian immigration after 1350 wiped it away again.

    Earlier on, it existed in many Indo-European dialects. It is rather rare outside Europe.

  5. #115
    Senior Member JHBowden's Avatar
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    Ethnic Studies Banned
    WooHoo! Intellectual slums do not have a right to public money.

    And we shouldn't stop at only defunding ethnic studies either.


  6. #116
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Umm....I don't know how different Canada is from the US, but this characterization of reservations seems reallly off. I don't think people choose to live in abject poverty with limited to no opportunities for education and advancement because of pride or ethnic clannishness. Indigenous people in Canada and the US were placed on reservations not because the native people WANTED to be placed on reservations but because there was no other "choice". They are a conquered and displaced people.
    Canada's very similar to the states, but there's some things which're vastly different... the USA is capitalist; if yeu can't afford to pay for yeurself, yeu deserve to die. Canada's socialist; basic needs are met and covered regardless of poverty usually... though there are sadly those that fall through the cracks anyway.

    Now obviously, 200 years ago, the natives didn't WANT to be shoved into reservations away from the general populace and kicked off their land. Srsly, that'd be just stupid to claim. They didn't go there by choice originally.

    The problem is now that they have a strong culture... same as japan or any other place with a long heritage and culture. They don't want to leave no matter how bad it may get. Japan's got MASSIVE overcrowding, terrifying poverty, and even on the top end, a manager really doesn't make much more than a grunt wageslave.

    So, too, is the reservations. They have a people, a culture, an identity, and a language. As soon as they leave that reservation, all of that disappears, pretty much.

    I'm sure they don't like the conditions where they are all that much, but if they had to choose between living a 'normal' well off life that's available outside the reservation, or staying where they are... the vast majority choose to stay where they are because it's part of who they are. Yes they can live better elsewhere, and they're free to go there... but they won't, generally, because it requires sacrificing too much to them.

    Noone really WANTS to live in poverty... but some choose to do so because they view it as the lesser of two evils.


    And I don't understand how, if indigenous 'card carrying' tribal members on reservations are receiving so much free money that as a class of people they could still live in abject poverty or need to turn to casinos or creating tourist attractions at the Grand Canyon. to survive as a group.
    I'm not so sure how the states handles things, but considering the USA's policy on other, related topics, the states usually seems to be of the mindset of "we conquered it, it's ours, also anyone who is different should learn english and or GTFO!"

    Somehow I doubt that much concession is made towards the natives in the states, since I highly doubt many people really feel all that guilty about kicking them off their land, and view them about the same as they do illegal immigrants, which's sad.


    Alcoholism amongst indigenous people is kinda a legacy of 'the white man' and is generally prevalent amongst the poor and underclass, regardless of race or color.
    Sadly true, though some areas are worse off for it than others. Reservations tend to have it really bad, especially in canada, since they DO have money, but they don't really have anywheres to spend it. Alot of goods/services they receive for free, they get large sums back on taxes and don't pay any, food/shelter is provided for... the things most people pay the most on they either get for free or get PAID for. Even if one doesn't have a job, they still make out semi decently. But the problem then becomes, yeu have a bunch of people isolated off by themselves, who won't leave if given the choice... whot do people with excess monies do? Sin city here we come... why do yeu think it's so common for anyone rich to fall into temptation? Hookers, booze and drug trips? Because they have no limitations on themselves, they don't have to earn things, they can have whotever they want. This's a good way to cripple people... giving them all they want for free. Throwing money at this problem doesn't solve it, it just makes it worse >.<

    Now, do they have lower income than average? Almost guaranteed. Alot don't work, since they don't NEED to work. The ones who do work do so at low rates since most of it will be on the reservation where they basically have their own private economy like a small country, and doesn't run off the regular rules since so little of it is externally made or produced. In some ways this's good, since it means a weak income doesn't have as big an effect as it would elsewhere in the world, such as the states, where low income = death and poverty. In a reservation, some things would be very expensive, such as cigarettes, even worse than normal, but there's nowheres else to spend the money so why not.




    The poorest people in America (again, not sure about Canada) are Native Americans, I believe statistically the poorest of the poor live on reservations in South Dakota. Though yes, there is a lot of variety in relative wealth amongst different nations (the terms preferred over 'tribe'), generally the ones with the casinos are the wealthiest.
    Keep in mind that the "poorest" is not neccesarily an accurate statistic either... as stated earlier in this post, there's other considerations to be factored in.

    One can have a low income, but if everything's cheap, it evens out. For example, where I live, the average income is about 30,000/year. In a large city, yeu'd be looking at double that. Thing is... a two story house can cost $40k or less. I knew one guy who bought a cottage here who lived in england, and he said that it cost him 1/3rd the amount it would've back there... the wages here SUCK... but the cost of everything is so low that it honestly doesn't matter, since it evens out.

    A reservation has this in spades... much of the stuff there literally doesn't cost anything. Many things which WOULD cost alot, such as taxes, instead give large returns. While their total income is low, their total expenses are even lower which balances out... kinda... which's bad. Because it means that the money they do have, they have nowheres to spend except on vices and depravity which's really, really bad... if yeu have no reason to work, no reason to worry about survival, shelter, food and such, then that money's going to go to wasteful stuff instead.



    Perhaps it's slightly different in Canada, but considering the shared history of the landmass, I can't believe it's much different. Reservations are part of a legacy of war and discrimination against native peoples, with treaties being honored only when it's convenient for the US (Canadian?) governments, and the sovereignty of native government and even basic land rights are always threatened whenever a US/Canadian government or business interest takes wants something.
    The government's been really careful to avoid pissing off the natives here, more of a guilt thing here and a political issue I believe than it is in the states.

    Yeu have to realize that, although canada and the states are very similar in many matters... economics and views towards anyone who isn't 'typical' are probably two of the largest differences there are.

    The states is GRRRWTF at immigrants in general, especially illegal ones. Canada literally can't support its' population WITHOUT immigration because of an abnormally low birth rate. The states will let yeu die in a hospital if yeu don't have health insurance and a credit card, canada yeu get treatment regardless and they aren't allowed to not give yeu treatment, no matter how poor yeu are. The states has the mentality that if yeu can't get money, then yeu're worthless and can die, canada's more of the opinion that everyone has the right to live, regardless of their pocketbook.

    These're pretty major differences, and are key to the treatment of natives.



    So basically...yeah, it seems disingenuous to say indigenous people (or any race of people) CHOSE to live on reservations or that they enjoy living in poverty with rampant alcoholism and higher infant mortality rates and shorter estimated life spans purely because of "choice" and they prefer being with their own.
    It still is a choice though... even if the choice sucks. They may view it as the lesser of two evils, but they still choose to do so. I choose NOT to commit suicide even when life turns serious SUCK... but it's a CHOICE. It's the lesser of two evils.

    A culture, especially a deeply rooted one that's thousands of years old... is a major thing. Yeu and I truly don't understand it likely, because yeu've stated yeu're in the states, I'm in canada. Our history goes back 200-500 years total, no more. We flat out don't have a deeply ingrained culture that's been cultivated for thousands of years.

    We may have a taste of it, but it isn't the same thing as france or japan or wherever which have been around for thousands of years.

    And that includes the natives... they have history... if they all left the reservations and went to work in "normal" lives... who would carry on the traditions? Who would preserve the language? Who would Maintain their culture?

    Noone.

    They'd be a dead people.

    The only way for them to escape the situation they're in, is to let their people die. And to be honest, there's not much good in that choice. But it is still a choice.

    Yes, they choose to stay behind, to continue as they have, because they feel it is the right choice. And honestly, I agree with them.

    The problem is, we have made that choice as unfavourable as possible which sucks... but it's still a choice. They CAN choose to pack up and go to college, get a good paying job... there's more than enough benefits for them to do so. A native applying for a job is almost guaranteed to get it, regardless of their qualifications, simply because the government subsidizes most of their pay; as in they only have to be paid half as much by the company for the same work provided, the other half is paid by the government. They CAN leave any time they want... but they don't want to.

    They don't want to stay in the conditions they live in either, but they can't make the choice that would let them escape such.

    It's still a choice. It's a crappy choice, and not a good one, but it is their choice.




    When you see this ^^ it's almost always because people got pushed out, not because they elected of free will to go.
    I do agree that, 200-500 years ago, this was the case. If we were to just let them have an entire province or something to themselves, it'd probably solve alot of issues, but that won't happen.

    These days, though, it's not a matter of being pushed out. That happened long ago, and though the ramifications of such are still with us, it's not the primary issue any longer.

    They have elected of free will not to integrate themselves into the new society that's available. They have every option to do so, more options than even I do. They just don't take it, because of how large the cost is...

    I could argue that, obviously, I can do anything I want because it's not my fault, it's the original sin of Eve for taking the apple in the first place, so really, I can't be blamed for anything I do.

    For some reason, this doesn't hold up too well in common sense nor court.

    The same holds true here... the basic original issue that led yeu to where yeu are is irrelevant. Yes, crap happened and they were pushed out of their homes, and that REALLY sucks. I feel saddened that I'm living on land that really wasn't mine originally, but it's too late to change that now. We can't keep dwelling on the past that's dead and gone. We have to make the choices for the future based on whot we have in the present. And whot we have in the present is opportunity and potential.

    We *CAN* change the future.

    But only if we want to.

    And sadly, for native americans in canada anyway, that option to 'want' to do so has been made as undesirable as possible so that they won't choose it.

    They can change their world, their lives, and their people.

    But they won't.

    And it's not the historical issue that's causing this, but the current situation.

    Hence, I still insist they have the choice, because they do. They just won't make the choice because it isn't as nice as they'd like it to be.

    In the end, yeu can't have everything. Yeu can't keep yeur ancient culture, traditions, way of life, AND still get all the benefits of a modern lifestyle. Concession has to occur somewhere, and it's usually not nearly as good as either dedicated side.

    And that's their biggest problem, really... they are stuck halfway. They maintain the old ways, but desire the new ones as well. They don't live a tribal life of hunting/gathering, although they have the legal right to do so... they want TV and cars and beer. They're stuck in the middle, conceding to both sides and getting the short end of the stick in both directions.

    Realistically, they have to choose a side. And humans aren't really designed to go backwards in progress, when they know there's better out there. We aren't built to 'go back to the old ways'. Now that they know of whot is out there, they'll always be tempted.

    Stupid movie, but have yeu seen the village? They tried to escape from culture there... but it didn't work. In the end, someone became deadly ill... and they had to choose... return to civilization to get the cure, or let them die. And they couldn't let them die. So they gave in, even though they tried not to. Sure this was just a movie, and not a very good one at that, but the point is still present: yeu can't abandon all yeu know about modern stuff. Medicine, technology, etc... there's no going back once pandora's box has been opened.

    As such, they can never return to the way life was. They cling onto it, hoping to preserve their culture, but it's sadly already dead because of whot we've done to them. They just don't know it yet. And it'll be a long, slow death in the process of realization.

    But whot can we do? The only real cure is to pick one side or the other, and one side's impossible to choose due to human nature, and the other side's unwilling to be chosen due to heritage and history.

    They're in a situation that no amount of money in the world will cure.

    It pains me to realize that I'm part of whot put them into the position to begin with. It pains me more, however, to realize that I'm unable to fix it or help in any way. I can't make the decision for them, and the won't accept the painful truth from me due to heritage, so we both sit and watch them go down their downward spiral. They have the choice to escape, but we both know they're not going to make that choice because they can't let their people die.

    And in so doing, they're already dead. It's just going to be a slow death instead of a fast one is all.

  7. #117
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    PHOENIX – A Valley man says he was pulled over Wednesday morning and questioned when he arrived at a weigh station for his commercial vehicle along Val Vista and the 202 freeway.

    Abdon, who did not want to use his last name, says he provided several key pieces of information but what he provided apparently was not what was needed.

    He tells 3TV, “I don't think it's correct, if I have to take my birth certificate with me all the time.”

    3TV caught up with Abdon after he was released from the Immigration and Customs Enforcement office in central Phoenix. He and his wife, Jackie, are still upset about what happened to him.

    Jackie tells 3TV, “It's still something awful to be targeted. I can't even imagine what he felt, people watching like he was some type of criminal.”

    Abdon was told he did not have enough paperwork on him when he pulled into a weigh station to have his commercial truck checked. He provided his commercial driver’s license and a social security number but ended up handcuffed.

    An agent called his wife and she had to leave work to drive home and grab other documents like his birth certificate.

    Jackie explains, “I have his social security card as well and mine. He's legit. It's the first time it's ever happened.”

    Both were born in the United States and say they are now both infuriated that keeping important documents safely at home is no longer an option.

    Jackie says, “It doesn't feel like it's a good way of life, to live with fear, even though we are okay, we are legal…still have to carry documents around.”

    A representative at U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) returned 3TV’s calls after researching the incident and she said this was standard operating procedure.

    The agents needed to verify Abdon was in the country legally and it is not uncommon to ask for someone's birth certificate. She also said this has nothing to do with the proposed bill or racial profiling.

    Truck driver forced to show birth certificate claims racial-profiling | Phoenix News | Arizona News | azfamily.com | Featured Videos
    A social security and driver's license isn't enough.

  8. #118
    Senior Member Shimmy's Avatar
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    A difficult subject this. I once had a German teacher who didn't speak any Dutch (only French and German, the latter not even that well). He was a horrible teacher who couldn't possibly convey any message to our class, and most of my then-classmates spoke German quite well, let alone keep order. He just didn't understand a word we were saying in Dutch. I'm not saying this applies to all teachers with an accent. But I can definitely see how you'd want a high standard of teachers that just isn't met by everyone.

    This off course, should be completely unrelated to the teachers nationality or what skin colour he or she has.
    (removed)

  9. #119
    Senior Member Daedalus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    A social security and driver's license isn't enough.
    Man....whats wrong with Arizona...these people are getting scarier by the day!
    What next? DNA info on identity Cards.
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  10. #120
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Maybe it's just too distracting when they ask you to take out "shits" of paper and to "fuckus" on your work.

    Does this mean all Spanish teachers must have a proper accent from a place where Spanish is the native language?

    I mean, my French teacher doesn't speak with the accent and it can get confusing. The Spanish teacher who shares her room is from Panama.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

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