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Thread: Ban the Burqa

  1. #71
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Victimless crimes get banned all the time. they are generally based on accepted cultural practices, for example walking around naked or only being allowed to be married to one person at a time.
    They do get banned all the time, and they are often some of the most retarded laws ever created.

    We are not talking about crime though, we are talking about banning a form of expression and it's infringement on personal rights.
    Hogwash. It becomes a crime if we outlaw it. That's the definition of a crime.

    And then I bring up my original point which is not such a weak argument after all.. Where does the rights of one person's comfort and personal expression end and where do another's begin?
    This is certainly debatable, but I have yet to see an argument that favors banning the burqa. If the burqa is banned, there will be some women whose families won't allow them in public anymore. That's hardly on the same level as being uncomfortable for a couple minutes.

    Since personal rights are highly subjective, why would someone's right to see the face every citizen they come into contact with over power the right of another to hide that face or likewise? Somebody gets hurt in each case.
    The only solution is majority rules.. meaning less people get hurt.
    What right is this again? I've never heard of this right before.

    Then you speak of alienation of culture. So what of the person who feels alienated by someone who they feel hides from them? What about the culture of the society where wearing a mask is not considered an acceptable practice??
    Who is alienating who?
    What culture is this?

    So going to your concept of demand.. if more people demand something than not, then more people should get what they want. This is why many bans are already in place over many "victimless crimes" .

    Just saying..
    You've got it totally wrong. I don't think you understand what I mean by demand at all. Think supply/demand curves.
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  2. #72
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Here's a concept that most Westerners have yet to understand: Some women WANT to wear the burqa. Most don't, but some do, and often they do because of their own personal religious beliefs, and not because of something imposed on them by the patriarchy.

    When it's being forced upon women, it's horrifying, yes. I agree. Have any of you read "The Swallows of Kabul"? That book does an excellent job of showing just how the burqa, when it's being forced upon a woman who doesn't want to wear it, can really hurt them mentally.

    However, isn't it also a bad thing to force women NOT to wear it? How is that feminist? You're still forcing women to do something that they might not want to do.

    And consider the fact that most people on this thread who are opposed to the burqa are men, and, unless I read incorrectly, either every or almost every woman who's posted here has spoken about a woman's right to wear what she wants. This seems to parallel burqa politics in countries such as France, i.e. forcing the male opinion on women, and not giving them the right to choose what to wear. Isn't that wrong, too?
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  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Couldn't I then counter argue that You can't go around not banning stuff just because you don't like banning stuff?
    Wrong. The onus is on the person who wants to ban something, because that is an imposition on the person's right to dress themselves.


    Everybody wants the world to be perfect in regard to their point of view. At some point decisions have to be made and it's impossible to please everyone.
    Wrong. I recognize that people all have different views as to what would be a perfect world, and it is not achievable in our actual imperfect human society. You can still have a free society in which people can work to make THEIR lives enjoyable and abundant without imposing on others.


    I will also add democracy is supposed to be about majority rules. NOT special interest, so if more people dislike something than not, why not ban it?
    Anddddddd. . . WRONG! First of all, we do not have pure democracies for some very good reasons, one of them being that society is NOT based on "majority rules." Even if 99% of the society hates something, that 1% has the SAME rights as everyone else. A majority of Americans are Christians. Should we ban Islam while we are at it? Your entire rationale is ridiculous.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    They do get banned all the time, and they are often some of the most retarded laws ever created.


    Hogwash. It becomes a crime if we outlaw it. That's the definition of a crime.


    This is certainly debatable, but I have yet to see an argument that favors banning the burqa. If the burqa is banned, there will be some women whose families won't allow them in public anymore. That's hardly on the same level as being uncomfortable for a couple minutes.


    What right is this again? I've never heard of this right before.


    What culture is this?


    You've got it totally wrong. I don't think you understand what I mean by demand at all. Think supply/demand curves.

    I am pretty sure you are not understanding me either.. Since once again I am positive you compeletely missed the point of my post..



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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Wrong. The onus is on the person who wants to ban something, because that is an imposition on the person's right to dress themselves.




    Wrong. I recognize that people all have different views as to what would be a perfect world, and it is not achievable in our actual imperfect human society. You can still have a free society in which people can work to make THEIR lives enjoyable and abundant without imposing on others.




    Anddddddd. . . WRONG! First of all, we do not have pure democracies for some very good reasons, one of them being that society is NOT based on "majority rules." Even if 99% of the society hates something, that 1% has the SAME rights as everyone else. A majority of Americans are Christians. Should we ban Islam while we are at it? Your entire rationale is ridiculous.
    NO my friend.. Listen carefully..

    I am pretty sure I have said in this thread that a pefect world is unatainable and that as long as humans are invloved it wont be happening any time soon.. So I am not sure why you needed to explain that to me???

    Secondly.. Wrong!!!!!!!! The onus is not on me. There are laws in my country that ban me from covering my face on any day of the year except halloween (and obviously extreme winter days, but my face coverings are expected to be removed as soon as I am indoors) , The idea behind banning the Burqa is equality for all.. even if the equality is an "Impostion".
    Either we can wear facial cover or we can't.. what the problem is, is making exceptions. This does not promote unity but creates further division.

    And for your 3rd point.. you are getting personal.. and you sound like a Communist. and in typical commie fashion you dont really disprove anything I say.. you just go after me and tell me I am stupid because you don't agree with me or whatever..
    Boring..

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    NO my friend.. Listen carefully..

    I am pretty sure I have said in this thread that a pefect world is unatainable and that as long as humans are invloved it wont be happening any time soon.. So I am not sure why you needed to explain that to me???
    So why would banning someone from wearing a burqa improve things for everyone? Sounds like it would piss a lot of people off.


    Secondly.. Wrong!!!!!!!! The onus is not on me. There are laws in my country that ban me from covering my face on any day of the year except halloween (and obviously extreme winter days, but my face coverings are expected to be removed as soon as I am indoors) , The idea behind banning the Burqa is equality for all.. even if the equality is an "Impostion".
    Either we can wear facial cover or we can't.. what the problem is, is making exceptions. This does not promote unity but creates further division.
    Laws aren't there to create unity. They are there to protect life, liberty, and property. I am sorry you live in a country where the government tells you what you may wear on your face. That is wrong.


    And for your 3rd point.. you are getting personal.. and you sound like a Communist. and in typical commie fashion you dont really disprove anything I say.. you just go after me and tell me I am stupid because you don't agree with me or whatever..
    Boring..
    Interesting call there. I've been called many things in my lifetime, but "Communist" was never one of them. I also DID disprove what you said, by pointing out that individuals have rights even when the majority disapproves of their behavior.
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  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Here's a concept that most Westerners have yet to understand: Some women WANT to wear the burqa. Most don't, but some do, and often they do because of their own personal religious beliefs, and not because of something imposed on them by the patriarchy.

    When it's being forced upon women, it's horrifying, yes. I agree. Have any of you read "The Swallows of Kabul"? That book does an excellent job of showing just how the burqa, when it's being forced upon a woman who doesn't want to wear it, can really hurt them mentally.

    However, isn't it also a bad thing to force women NOT to wear it? How is that feminist? You're still forcing women to do something that they might not want to do.

    And consider the fact that most people on this thread who are opposed to the burqa are men, and, unless I read incorrectly, either every or almost every woman who's posted here has spoken about a woman's right to wear what she wants. This seems to parallel burqa politics in countries such as France, i.e. forcing the male opinion on women, and not giving them the right to choose what to wear. Isn't that wrong, too?
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    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    I am pretty sure you are not understanding me either.. Since once again I am positive you compeletely missed the point of my post..


    Perhaps you could restate your point in a way that a simpleton like me can understand.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #79
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Here's a concept that most Westerners have yet to understand: Some women WANT to wear the burqa. Most don't, but some do, and often they do because of their own personal religious beliefs, and not because of something imposed on them by the patriarchy.

    When it's being forced upon women, it's horrifying, yes. I agree. Have any of you read "The Swallows of Kabul"? That book does an excellent job of showing just how the burqa, when it's being forced upon a woman who doesn't want to wear it, can really hurt them mentally.

    However, isn't it also a bad thing to force women NOT to wear it? How is that feminist? You're still forcing women to do something that they might not want to do.

    And consider the fact that most people on this thread who are opposed to the burqa are men, and, unless I read incorrectly, either every or almost every woman who's posted here has spoken about a woman's right to wear what she wants. This seems to parallel burqa politics in countries such as France, i.e. forcing the male opinion on women, and not giving them the right to choose what to wear. Isn't that wrong, too?
    I agree with alot of it, however, there is one major exception here which is rather important, that is not related to flags, or right to wear stuff or politics or religion or whotever.

    That is that most public places require that yeu show yeur face due to risk of harm. I went onto the bus in winter and it was FREAKING FREEZING, but I had to pull my scarf down to show my face because yeu're not allowed to use the bus system unless yeur face is visable upon boarding, in case yeu're needed to be identified later or if yeu're attempting to mug the driver or something like that.

    Same goes in schools, banks, etc... yeu generally aren't allowed to wear anything that conceals yeur face, such as ski masks, regardless of how cold it is. If yeu walk into a bank with a ski mask on, guess who's probably going to have security on them? That's not a 'right' to wear clothing, it's a right for employees and others nearby to be safe from potential harm.

    A full burga that covers the entire face is designed specifically to... not show the face. While it may be cultural or religious or enforced, that doesn't matter. Religious freedoms do not extend to situations which may infringe upon the well being or safety of others nearby.

    As such, the burga is a difficult situation, as, legally, it can't be worn in public places such as schools, buses, and so on, without removing it at some point, which defeats the purpose of it.

    If someone insisted they had the right to wear it and not remove it for religious reasons, they would still not have the right to enter wherever they were trying to as it would affect the potential safety of others nearby.

    For an example of such, in one training exercise for troops going off to the middle east, a terrorist leader was dressed in women's clothing wearing a burga that covered the face, and managed to nearly escape detection, and did succeed in doing so for about 2 hours straight due to such. While that is unlikely to occur elsewhere, such as aussieland, england or north america, the fact that someone who wants to rob a place could just put one on and not be seen is very possible.

    Anyways, I dunno whot to think really. While I think they should be allowed their freedom to wear such, I also have to keep in mind the realistic view that it's not practical to allow such either. If a compromise of being allowed to wear such but having to show the face upon request were met, it'd fix all the problems. However, chances are that compromise won't come without a huge hissy fit in the process about their personal rights, and ignoring the rights of anyone else around them.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    I agree with alot of it, however, there is one major exception here which is rather important, that is not related to flags, or right to wear stuff or politics or religion or whotever.

    That is that most public places require that yeu show yeur face due to risk of harm. I went onto the bus in winter and it was FREAKING FREEZING, but I had to pull my scarf down to show my face because yeu're not allowed to use the bus system unless yeur face is visable upon boarding, in case yeu're needed to be identified later or if yeu're attempting to mug the driver or something like that.

    Same goes in schools, banks, etc... yeu generally aren't allowed to wear anything that conceals yeur face, such as ski masks, regardless of how cold it is. If yeu walk into a bank with a ski mask on, guess who's probably going to have security on them? That's not a 'right' to wear clothing, it's a right for employees and others nearby to be safe from potential harm.

    A full burga that covers the entire face is designed specifically to... not show the face. While it may be cultural or religious or enforced, that doesn't matter. Religious freedoms do not extend to situations which may infringe upon the well being or safety of others nearby.

    As such, the burga is a difficult situation, as, legally, it can't be worn in public places such as schools, buses, and so on, without removing it at some point, which defeats the purpose of it.

    If someone insisted they had the right to wear it and not remove it for religious reasons, they would still not have the right to enter wherever they were trying to as it would affect the potential safety of others nearby.

    For an example of such, in one training exercise for troops going off to the middle east, a terrorist leader was dressed in women's clothing wearing a burga that covered the face, and managed to nearly escape detection, and did succeed in doing so for about 2 hours straight due to such. While that is unlikely to occur elsewhere, such as aussieland, england or north america, the fact that someone who wants to rob a place could just put one on and not be seen is very possible.

    Anyways, I dunno whot to think really. While I think they should be allowed their freedom to wear such, I also have to keep in mind the realistic view that it's not practical to allow such either. If a compromise of being allowed to wear such but having to show the face upon request were met, it'd fix all the problems. However, chances are that compromise won't come without a huge hissy fit in the process about their personal rights, and ignoring the rights of anyone else around them.

    A private institution like a bank has every right to demand that people reveal their faces upon entrance. A courtroom in which everyone must be identified and pass through a metal detector would make sense, as well. But a public school? Other than in instances when you need to identify someone for test taking and registration and such, everyone should be able to express their religious beliefs freely.
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