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Thread: Ban the Burqa

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramis View Post
    Am I a bad Muslim if I choose not to wear the burqa, then?
    Would you be a bad muslim if you criticised the Koran?

    Would you be a bad muslim if you criticised Mohammed?

    Would you be a bad muslim if you advocated the separation of mosque and State?

    Would you be a bad muslim is you accepted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?

    Would you be a bad muslim if you said Islam is a violent political religion?

    Would you be a bad muslim if you said Islam is totalitarian?

    Would you be a bad muslim if you said Islam is misogynist?

    Would you be a bad muslim if you came out onto the streets to protest Islamic terrorism?

    Would you be a bad muslim if you criticised Taqiyya, the Islamic principle of lying to dhimmi and infidels for the sake of Allah?

    Would you be a bad muslim if you criticised jihad and martyrdom?

    Would you be a bad muslim if you criticised Islamic child marriage?

    Would you be a bad muslim if you criticised the death penalty for Islamic apostasy?

    And would you be a bad muslim if you supported Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who lives in fear of her life?

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Would you be a bad muslim if you criticised the Koran?
    Depends. Criticizing someone's interpretation of the Quran is warranted if you see an inconsistency or some other glaring error in understanding of the original Arabic text. To this day, the meaning of every word in the Quran is not fully known, nor will it be. The beauty behind this notion is that for all the truths provided to us humans on this plane of existence, we can choose to see or not to see the truth. God wills us the ability and patience to seek it, to understand it, and apply it to our lives.

    Would you be a bad muslim if you criticised Mohammed?
    Yes, it is not recommended to criticize the Prophet. It is not bad to criticize the hadith and interpretors of the Sunnah, however. If you have extensive knowledge of the hadith and sunnah, you will realize that we only know what we do about the Prophet through those two mediums for conveying knowledge of his behavior and choices throughout life. Human errors in collecting knowledge will be apparent at times, do use your own sense of rationality and seek to rise above the words you see and apply your understanding of his overall character to those situations.

    Would you be a bad muslim if you advocated the separation of mosque and State?
    No. So many Muslims do not even live in Islamic countries, therefore cannot demand the continuity of that connection between religion and state. To become instigators of hatred and un-peaceful living besides non-Muslims goes against the very fabric of the peaceful nature of Muslims, in general.

    Would you be a bad muslim is you accepted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?
    No. Islam advocated human rights by seeking to abolish the discrimination rampant in Arab society against Abyssinians (and other Africans), women (finally, being able to hold their own property, and not burying daughters alive), etc. Through marriage, the Prophet sought to ease his people into acceptance for abolishing social elitism, as well. Class systems were looked upon disfavorably.

    Would you be a bad muslim if you said Islam is a violent political religion?
    Yes. Because I don't speak lies. Islam is a religion for the individual and community. Moreso, the individual, since you are judged by Allah for your sins and good deeds, not by another's. Ultimately, those who lead a violent life, no matter their religion, are not destined for peace in the afterlife, according to traditional Muslim teachings.

    Would you be a bad muslim if you said Islam is totalitarian?
    Is it a good or a bad thing to be totalitarian? You are assigning the very word a negative connotation. Your personal values are bleeding through the lines, seeking to be imposed upon people of a different mindset...the very thing you despise and fear happening to you.

    Sometimes, it's easier and safer to bite before being bitten.

    Would you be a bad muslim if you said Islam is misogynist?
    No. One is free to argue their perspectives in the fold of Islam. There are plenty of Muslims who are considered staunchly faithful by their peers of opposing views.

    Would you be a bad muslim if you came out onto the streets to protest Islamic terrorism?
    No. Islam is not a violence-seeking-promoting religion. Islam seeks first peaceful reconciliation. Violence is simply one of many options to resolve a situation where you are being oppressed.

    Would you be a bad muslim if you criticised Taqiyya, the Islamic principle of lying to dhimmi and infidels for the sake of Allah?
    What's to criticize if it's allowed by Allah?

    Would you be a bad muslim if you criticised jihad and martyrdom for the sake of Allah?
    Jihad = a concept. Usually, of a personal nature. I am curious what is your understanding of this concept?

    Martyrdom = When the Christians were being oppressed and marched to their deaths before the time of Islam's birth, martyrdom was viewed as a sign of having strong faith. Even though you marched to your death to a mass grave, along with your child laid against your breast, you still did it because you held strongly to your faith in God. Encouraged, in fact, to carry every heavy-laden foot forward, despite your fears and tears, to the grave where your brothers and sisters now lay, dead. Is life more valuable than death? In choosing death over life in a martyrdom context freedom from oppression, and symbolic union with your Lord's word, is forged.

    Why, then, is martyrdom a negative behavior or way of thinking for a Muslim, but not a Christian? Hypocrisy is unbecoming.

    Would you be a bad muslim if you criticised Islamic child marriage?
    Is there anything Islamic about child marriage, or do you just mean within a cultural-context child marriage?

    Would you be a bad muslim if you criticised the death penalty for Islamic apostasy?
    No. Death penalty is a last resort. Taking another's life goes against the peaceful nature of a majority of Muslims. One's apostasy is between that individual and Allah.

    The few extremes who take action against a gentle apostate are acting against the teachings of their religion (One does not know the path upon which Allah takes them... whether they will continue being an apostate, or to return to Islam is before Allah, and not a human-matter).

    A gentle apostate being someone who was not antagonizing those who remain in the faith, seeking to be a nuisance beyond the normal oratory-method on a soapbox, preaching their anti-beliefs. I am talking violent actions by the apostate against believers for still being believers.

    And would you be a bad muslim if you supported Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who lives in fear of her life?
    Yes. Unfortunately, her main issues with Islam are based on her cultural experiences in Africa. They are not based on the majority teachings in Islam. Sadly, her perspectives are influenced heavily by her horrible experiences delivered at the hands of her family under the guise of religion. This is typical of un-educated regions, which has little to do with actual Islamic teachings. Rather their illiteracy or lack of resources, etc.

  3. #53
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Instead of making me the issue once again, why not address the issue.
    Because it is about you. You don't have enough information to draw any of the conclusions you've drawn. The question becomes, why are you so adamant when you're also so ignorant?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #54
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    So as well as having pressure from their families to wear the Burqa, Muslim women now should also be ordered by the state to not wear it, putting them in an impossible position?

    It's a bit like ordering someone "break with all the pressures of your culture and family before you can be integrated fully into secular walks of life"; a perverse, bigotted and reactionary position if ever I heard one.

    The only way to bury the religious and cultural relics of the past is through material advance which makes them obsolete - the oppsoite of what capitalism today can offer.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

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    I am all about what is fair.. you know?

    So I have no problem with Burqas being worn in public or wherever.
    BUT.. If I have to show my face on my passport photo so should everyone else.
    If I have to show my face to vote.. so should everyone else.
    If I attract suspicion walking into a shop when I have my face covered then I can fully understand why some people are uncomfortable with Burqas.

    I personally prefer to talk to people I can communicate fully with.. meaning I like to be able to read their facial expressions.
    This is probably why I have no friends who don Burqas.

  6. #56
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    Perhaps a compromise could be that in identification situations, a person could request a member of their same sex for modesty/religious reasons... so in terms of a passport or something, it would be an option to have a female officer be the one to check you.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  7. #57
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    Is it safe to operate a car wearing a burqa, like visibility and stuff?
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  8. #58
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    Wearing a big black bag does not liberate women. It brands them as possessions, like cattle, sheep, camels...this is typical of nomadic/warrior societies. Is anyone surprised that in the west, fewer Muslim women feel obligated to wear the burqa?
    Of course Christianity is no more primitive than Islam, but the cultural ideals that predated it, and allowed it to take root, are very different that those of a nomadic/warrior culture. The legacy of these differences are what we're are talking about.

  9. #59
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    Wearing a big black bag does not liberate women. It brands them as possessions, like cattle, sheep, camels...this is typical of nomadic/warrior societies. Is anyone surprised that in the west, fewer Muslim women feel obligated to wear the burqa?
    The question is not whether or not the burqa has positive or negative effect on society. The question is whether or not banning the burqa would. It's a bad idea to go around banning things just because you don't like them.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The question is not whether or not the burqa has positive or negative effect on society. The question is whether or not banning the burqa would. It's a bad idea to go around banning things just because you don't like them.
    Couldn't I then counter argue that You can't go around not banning stuff just because you don't like banning stuff?

    Everybody wants the world to be perfect in regard to their point of view. At some point decisions have to be made and it's impossible to please everyone.

    I will also add democracy is supposed to be about majority rules. NOT special interest, so if more people dislike something than not, why not ban it?

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