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Thread: Ban the Burqa

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    And the only chance it has to supplant liberal democracy is if you implement stupid policies, like banning the burqa. You're playing right into their hands.
    It's a choice between feminism and misogyny.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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  3. #33
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    It's a little misogynistic to assume that a woman shouldn't have the right to wear a burqa if she wants to. Are we certain that no women are voluntarily wearing them? And how is forcing women out of the public eye going to make them more liberated?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    It's a little misogynistic to assume that a woman shouldn't have the right to wear a burqa if she wants to. Are we certain that no women are voluntarily wearing them? And how is forcing women out of the public eye going to make them more liberated?
    Liberal democracy depends on freedom of speech. And you can't talk to someone imprisoned in a black sack.

    They are imprisoned in a black sack, we are told, so they won't inflame the passions of men.

    But consider what would happen if we imprisoned men in a black sack.

  5. #35
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    I had an acquaitance in college who wore a burqua... she was very smart, well educated and from a well off family where nobody else wore a burqua except for her grandmother- she liked wearing one as a manner of identifying with her culture, and she claimed that it was a great way to pick up guys, both muslim and non-muslim because they were intrigued as to what was UNDER the burqua

    some women WANT to wear them... that's right
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    And you can't talk to someone imprisoned in a black sack.
    Yes actually you can, it's very easy. You lacking the charm of how to talk to women doesnt change that.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    It's a little misogynistic to assume that a woman shouldn't have the right to wear a burqa if she wants to. Are we certain that no women are voluntarily wearing them? And how is forcing women out of the public eye going to make them more liberated?
    Yeah...it's really hard to 'liberate' anyone at the end of a gun, a threat, an ultimatum, or a full on military assault.

    I don't disagree that certain things are misogynistic, but the issue with inequality that is endemic to a tradition, culture, belief system, etc. is that there is a lot of complicity in it from all involved. Or rather, it gets very mixed in deep into the fibers of the identity of those affected.

    It was a similar debate with nascent US feminism in the 60s and 70s with a few radical feminists stating outright "being a housewife shouldn't be a choice, for the very reason a woman might take it".

    I understand the point and the context of that comment and line of thought. Hard lines counter hard lines.

    So saying burquas should be outlawed and women can NOT wear them seems a good counterpoint to burquas are law and woman MUST wear them.

    But true "liberation" is often just an ideal or an abstraction. In reality changes that occur are incremental and the result of concessions. Kind of a "well, this is the best we can do".

    I think post-apartheid South Africa is a good example of this.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    In reality changes that occur are incremental and the result of concessions.
    This would be nice but incremental change is a double edged sword. Incremental change can go to both ways.

    And at the moment the liberal democracies are being subject to salami tactics.

    And they aim to eat the whole salami, slice by slice.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    This would be nice but incremental change is a double edged sword. Incremental change can go to both ways.

    And at the moment the liberal democracies are being subject to salami tactics.

    And they aim to eat the whole salami, slice by slice.
    My dad and I tend to do that with a pan of brownies...
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  10. #40
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    I think most non-violent methods of de-fundamentalizing Muslims should be considered. It's a good thing for everybody that Muslim populations become more liberal, democratic, and secular. Not just because of terrorism, but because they treat their women like crap.

    And Turkey is a nation that is 99% Muslim nation but has moderate secular politics and is democratic. And they'll soon be accepted into the European Union.

    I know they used burqa bans in the past, but have eased some restrictions. They found out it made some Muslim women opt out of going to school, because they couldn't wear it there. I think there are better methods.

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