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  1. #31
    Member themightybob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    I have British citizenship (though I don't consider myself British), and I support the Iraqis and Afghans to defeat Britain. I judge by who is in the right, not by the flag on my passport.
    Why do you support the Afghan insurgents? I can see how one might take the side of the iraqi insurgency, but afghanistan is another story.

  2. #32
    Senior Member eagleseven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by themightybob View Post
    The problem is that revouloution in third world countries rarely results in a government better than the one it was supposed to replace. The best thing for iraq now would be that the current government remains in power and the u.s continually withdraws its troops.
    Look at Iran under the US-Supported Shah (oppressed but growing) versus today (oppressed and collapsing).

    For that matter, compare almost all of former British colonies to their status before a colony (poor tribal or traditional dictatorships), versus status as a colony. Many of the countries in Africa haven't had a stable government since the oppressive European regimes left.

    Am I saying I prefer oppression? Hell no.

    But an oppressive government that improves the lives of its people, is far superior to an oppressive government that pillages its people.

  3. #33
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Tis an irreconcilable difference of opinons, I fear.

    My primary loyalty is to my family, then to my friends, then to my country, then to our allies, and finally to the greater world.

    Perhaps it is not the same for the Brits, but the world will simply not allow me to forget that I am American. I am a high-value target in South America and Africa, a cultural hick in half of Europe, and an intriguing oddity in most of Asia. I cannot abandon my national heiritage anymore than I can abandon my skin color or genetic sex.
    I am not aksing you to abandon your national heritage, you're not going to lose your whole culture just because the US gets defeated in a war of aggression. But perhaps you could tell me what ordinary Americans have got out of the Iraq invasion except for a high cost, a heightened treat of retaliation, and a distraction while they were destroying your economy. And what is "patriotic" about that?

    Where do your loyalties lie?
    With working people. I am a socialist and proud of it.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    themightybob - with regards to Afghanistan, even the British army has admitted that 2/3 of those in the resistance are not in the Taleban, and the US has admitted that the majority of the resistance are not motivated by religion.

    The government installed is corrupt and only in place through electoral fraud, and it has tried to bring in legislation even more repressive to women than existed even under the Taleban, for example that if a wife denied ehr husband sex he could deny her the right to leave the house.

    Again, the Allies are simply funding different warlords against each other, just as they funded the Mujahideen in the past. Add to this that Afghanistan has never been successfully conquered, and all you are left with is an adventure that is only costing lives on both sides, has changed one set of murderers for another, and has no hope of cementing control over the whole country anyway.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagleseven View Post
    Ideally, the rules would include "You may not kill anyone" and "The first force to be outmaneuvered must capitulate to the other's demands." Problem is, these rules fly out the window when you are out-maneuvered by a leader like Hitler.
    What an absurd strawman.

  5. #35
    Member themightybob's Avatar
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    Who exactly in the british army made that statement? They might have been reffering to the majority of the current insurgents being Al-qaeda, which is basically just a more clandestine wing of the taliban. If that statement was meant to be interpreted the way you did im sure their are multiple statements from the same source stating the contrary.

    No doubt the afghan government is corrupt, but i do not think the taliban is less corrupt, and make no mistake about it if the current government collapsed that's who would be running the show again.

    Unlike the war in iraq the U.S actually had a legitimate reason for entering into the war with afghanistan.

  6. #36
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagleseven View Post
    My primary loyalty is to my family, then to my friends, then to my country, then to our allies, and finally to the greater world.

    Perhaps it is not the same for the Brits, but the world will simply not allow me to forget that I am American. I am a high-value target in South America and Africa, a cultural hick in half of Europe, and an intriguing oddity in most of Asia. I cannot abandon my national heiritage anymore than I can abandon my skin color or genetic sex.

    Where do your loyalties lie?
    Yes, we ineluctably discover we are Aussies when we travel overseas.

    And being so far from everywhere, and dominated by the tyranny of distance, going overseas was rite of passage in which we discovered who we are.

    But here right at my desk, the tyranny of distance has been overcome, and here am I, an Aussie, speaking to you, an American.

    We are indelibly ourselves which will lead inevitably to misunderstandings as we have quite different histories and different manners and mores.

    The danger is that you will see us as a little America, and we will see you as cultural imperialists.

    We are naive to think we can communicate simply because we speak English.

    We need to learn to put on another culture like we put on a new skin.

    Usually the best way is to learn the language, so we went to the feet of the inventor of American English, Noah Webster, to hear what he had to say.

    And what he taught was Revolution - Revolution of the English language. But not a proletarian Revolution but a bourgeois Revolution.

    Fortunately we have never had a proletarian Revolution or a bourgeois Revolution in Oz, so we didn't know what he was talking about - and so we just kept on speaking the Queen's English, the language of Shakespeare.

    You will never abandon your Webster's American Dictionary, just as we will not abandon The Macquarie Dictionary of Australian and New Zealand English.

    So whenever I log in, I keep my Webster's handy to remind me of how different you are.

    How interesting we are allies.

  7. #37
    Senior Member eagleseven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    What an absurd strawman.
    It demonstrates the abusrd futility of attempting to regulate warfare.

    You say that there have always been attempts to govern war. I say that the winner has always broken the regulations, one way or another.

    If laws of war genuinely worked, then I argue we should be able to legaly prevent war, by simple regulation. Since we cannot settle all our conflicts with a game of checkers, our war regulations are continually broken.

    To continue the metaphor, each checker player will pull out a pistol and shoot the other, when he's about to lose the game.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagleseven View Post
    It demonstrates the abusrd futility of attempting to regulate warfare.
    No it doesn't. It just shows your flare for inventing stuff up and claiming it proves a point. Unless you can prove there were actual rules as you mentioned.

    You say that there have always been attempts to govern war. I say that the winner has always broken the regulations, one way or another.
    Ok then explain why the ban on chemical weapons(which was enacted after WWI) wasnt broken during WWII? Well except for one incident with the Italians in Abyssinia, but that was 1936 IIRC just before the war proper.

  9. #39
    Senior Member eagleseven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Yes, we ineluctably discover we are Aussies when we travel overseas.

    And being so far from everywhere, and dominated by the tyranny of distance, going overseas was rite of passage in which we discovered who we are.

    But here right at my desk, the tyranny of distance has been overcome, and here am I, an Aussie, speaking to you, an American.

    We are indelibly ourselves which will lead inevitably to misunderstandings as we have quite different histories and different manners and mores.
    I'm still learning the rules of Footy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The danger is that you will see us as a little America, and we will see you as cultural imperialists.
    I'm afraid we already do...just as we see Canada as a french-flavored little America. American culture has always been good at assimilating other cultures. There were American-born players on the Canadian Olympic Hockey Team, so it was a win-win for us.

    Resistance is futile! :p

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    We are naive to think we can communicate simply because we speak English.

    We need to learn to put on another culture like we put on a new skin.

    Usually the best way is to learn the language, so we went to the feet of the inventor of American English, Noah Webster, to hear what he had to say.

    And what he taught was Revolution - Revolution of the English language. But not a proletarian Revolution but a bourgeois Revolution.

    Fortunately we have never had a proletarian Revolution or a bourgeois Revolution in Oz, so we didn't know what he was talking about - and so we just kept on speaking the Queen's English, the language of Shakespeare.
    Honestly, most Americans don't get your hangup with the Queen's English. We just see it as a quirky version of what we speak.


    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    You will never abandon your Webster's American Dictionary, just as we will not abandon The Macquarie Dictionary of Australian and New Zealand English.
    Truth be told, we are assimilating Mexican Spanish, as well. Most young Americans can at least read Spanish, and a significant percentage can speak it somewhat fluently.

    Go to certain border state cities, and speaking English will get you funny stares. I think you are reading too much into a simple dictionary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    So whenever I log in, I keep my Webster's handy to remind me of how different you are.

    How interesting we are allies.
    I'd say Australia's 0.02 billion people should be far more concerned about China and India's combined 2.6 billion people, than American's 0.3 billion people.

    China could dump 5% of it's population in Australia, and you would lose your country in a single election.

  10. #40
    Senior Member eagleseven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    No it doesn't. It just shows your flare for inventing stuff up and claiming it proves a point. Unless you can prove there were actual rules as you mentioned.
    Third Geneva Convention - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Americans, Russians, Germans, and Japanese all executed captured POWs on several occasions.

    The Japanese made it a policy (Bataan Death March), and the Russians didn't think twice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Ok then explain why the ban on chemical weapons(which was enacted after WWI) wasnt broken during WWII? Well except for one incident with the Italians in Abyssinia, but that was 1936 IIRC just before the war proper.
    The Japanese Empire deployed both chemical and biological weapons en masse against the Chinese military and civilian populations.

    Japan also used them to torture American POWs.

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