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  1. #21
    Senior Member eagleseven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    There's always been rules of some kind governing warfare.
    Ideally, the rules would include "You may not kill anyone" and "The first force to be outmaneuvered must capitulate to the other's demands." Problem is, these rules fly out the window when you are out-maneuvered by a leader like Hitler.

  2. #22
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagleseven View Post
    By definition, there are no rights in war. There is only power.
    And "war is the extension of politics by other means", so by definition there are no "rights" in any society - wartime or peace time - other than those won through struggle - and these can also be taken away through struggle.

    But when I talk about "rights", this is not an appeal to the enemy to "respect" those rights or an appeal to the law courts - such a thing would be utopian, you don't ask a leopard to change its spots - it is more of a call to people in such a position that they have a "moral right" to resist and on the honest people in the west, who get no profit from these wars, to support them.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    themightybob - I don't know where you got your statistics from. There is no united "insurgency", at different times different groups have fought the invaders. The Ba'athist resistance and Mehdi Army were most definitely Iraqis and they numbered many tens of thousands. Their leaders have cut deals with the US and government but this is unstable.

    More to the point though the majority of Iraqis hate the occupiers and want them to leave, and I defend their right to fight them by all means necessarry.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  3. #23
    Senior Member eagleseven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    But when I talk about "rights", this is not an appeal to the enemy to "respect" those rights or an appeal to the law courts - such a thing would be utopian, you don't ask a leopard to change its spots - it is more of a call to people in such a position that they have a "moral right" to resist and on the honest people in the west, who get no profit from these wars, to support them.
    *cleans his eyeglasses*

    It sounds like you are suggesting we provide material aid to the enemy...otherwise known as treason.

    Am I reading you correctly?

  4. #24
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagleseven View Post
    *cleans his eyeglasses*

    It sounds like you are suggesting we provide material aid to the enemy...otherwise known as treason.

    Am I reading you correctly?
    "Support" can mean many things.

    Why do you consider people fighting against an invasion of their country to be your enemy?
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  5. #25
    Member themightybob's Avatar
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    The Ba'athist resistance was mainly disgruntled former Iraqi military and is no longer a major player in the insurgency. The bulk of the attacks on U.S. and European troops come from Al-qaeda.The majority of violence recently has been between rival iraqi factions, not anti-coalition insurgents; most of the killing is Iraqi on Iraqi.

    The majority of Iraqis oppose U.S presence, however the ammount of iraqi civilians who feel strongly enough to actually fight the coalition is probably minimal. The major groups fighting the coalition each have their own political agendas, other than pushing out the coalition. The expulsion of coalition forces is just a stepping stone for their larger plan, dominating Iraq. This is the primary reason why they are no more popular among Iraqis than the U.S.

    In other words the insurgents are not fighting to push out America and restore the government to the people; they simply want to gain control for their own faction and institute another totalitarian regime.

  6. #26
    Senior Member eagleseven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    "Support" can mean many things.
    Indeed.



    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Why do you consider people fighting against an invasion of their country to be your enemy?
    Because I am the one invading.

    Did you support the German People's "right" to fight the invading Russian and American armies in 1944?

  7. #27
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by themightybob View Post
    The Ba'athist resistance was mainly disgruntled former Iraqi military and is no longer a major player in the insurgency. The bulk of the attacks on U.S. and European troops come from Al-qaeda.The majority of violence recently has been between rival iraqi factions, not anti-coalition insurgents; most of the killing is Iraqi on Iraqi.

    The majority of Iraqis oppose U.S presence, however the ammount of iraqi civilians who feel strongly enough to actually fight the coalition is probably minimal. The major groups fighting the coalition each have their own political agendas, other than pushing out the coalition. The expulsion of coalition forces is just a stepping stone for their larger plan, dominating Iraq. This is the primary reason why they are no more popular among Iraqis than the U.S.

    In other words the insurgents are not fighting to push out America and restore the government to the people; they simply want to gain control for their own faction and institute another totalitarian regime.
    These are fair points but there is a big difference between acknowledging the current situation - that the Ba'athists and different sectarian militias who once compromised the resistance have now largely been bought off by the US in return for chunks of power and territory and are often armed by the US and played off against each other - and acknowledging the fact that the Iraqis oppose the occupation of their country, want the troops out, and should be supported by us in that demand.

    What is for sure is that the occupiers are not providing any kind of "protection" as you claim. They are arming the sectarian militias, they are now only preparing the handover to these, in order to cement in place a murderous regime. If they were driven out now it would weaken this "totalitarianism", not strengthen it.

    As for how this will happen, it would mean a revolution against both the occupiers and the current regime based on "divide and rule" sectarianism. The question is not how likely this is, rather that this is the only route out of civil war and subordination to the US.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  8. #28
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Did you support the German People's "right" to fight the invading Russian and American armies in 1944?
    I have British citizenship (though I don't consider myself British), and I support the Iraqis and Afghans to defeat Britain. I judge by who is in the right, not by the flag on my passport.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  9. #29
    Member themightybob's Avatar
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    The problem is that revouloution in third world countries rarely results in a government better than the one it was supposed to replace. The best thing for iraq now would be that the current government remains in power and the U.S. continually withdraws its troops.

    It is really kind of ironic; the only reason the U.S. is still in Iraq on a large scale is because of the insurgency. If it hadnt been for the resistance the U.S. would have no combat troops in Iraq and the country would probably be stable by now, possibly even flourishing (by middle eastern standards).

    What is in the best interest of America is in the best interest of Iraq at this moment, even if its motivations for starting the war were questionable.

  10. #30
    Senior Member eagleseven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    I have British citizenship (though I don't consider myself British), and I support the Iraqis and Afghans to defeat Britain. I judge by who is in the right, not by the flag on my passport.
    Tis an irreconcilable difference of opinons, I fear.

    My primary loyalty is to my family, then to my friends, then to my country, then to our allies, and finally to the greater world.

    Perhaps it is not the same for the Brits, but the world will simply not allow me to forget that I am American. I am a high-value target in South America and Africa, a cultural hick in half of Europe, and an intriguing oddity in most of Asia. I cannot abandon my national heiritage anymore than I can abandon my skin color or genetic sex.

    Where do your loyalties lie?

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