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  1. #71
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Just a couple of things for the record, my opposition and honest abhorrence for homosexuality isnt anything to do with my faith, which is accepting of homosexuality provided that it isnt practiced (in fact the RC faith would consider all sexual behaviour between heterosexuals which is not procreative to be a contravention of natural law and anathema, there are some discussion of contraceptive methods between men and women which are not artifical but that's a recent thing).

    I also dont experience any fear of either homosexuals or homosexual acts either, homophobia's one of those things, if (and I believe it is) homosexuality is in reality, objectively, a minority habit then genuine homophobia is a smaller population again. Instead the political promotors of homosexuality suggest its even more pervasive than the homosexuality they suggest is already pervasive. At which point I tend to think they're just trying to close things down.

    It'd be a bit like suggesting that all proponents of homosexuality were really heterophobic.

  2. #72
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagleseven View Post
    I was simply addressing the position you were defending regarding homosexuality. If that is not your personal opinon, it matters not, as you were actively defending the anti-homosexual position.

    Claiming devil's advocate doesn't grant immunity to the devil's argument.


    Tis no different from a father who denies the existence of his son-in-law. It rips the family apart, and creates distrust/resentment.


    It is obvious that Lark's religious (aka cultural) values set his family values.


    The "contempt for homosexuality" that you defend above has stigmitized homosexual for the past 1,500 years.




    Is one who believes fantasy for noble ends superior to one who believes truth out of fear?


    You just stated that "innocent or well-meaning starting points" gain your respect, even if they ultimately lead to an evil end.

    You are arguing that the means justify the ends.


    You change the young, not the old. Religion is maintained by the old, and is resistant to change.


    Then perhaps you should avoid tending the wounds of the dogs in the fight for your entertainment. Otherwise, expected to be bitten.
    Your dramatising your epic struggle with the evils of all those who fail to share your views a little too much really.

  3. #73
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Just a couple of things for the record, my opposition and honest abhorrence for homosexuality isnt anything to do with my faith, which is accepting of homosexuality provided that it isnt practiced (in fact the RC faith would consider all sexual behaviour between heterosexuals which is not procreative to be a contravention of natural law and anathema, there are some discussion of contraceptive methods between men and women which are not artifical but that's a recent thing).
    So sex for a married post-menapausal women with her husband is abhorrent and sinful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    That's a very good argument and to be honest a very clear illustration of my point, the analogy with polygamy is a good one.
    The problem with analogies is they are never exact... plus there are so many to choose from! For polygamy there is Biblical support that God (grudgingly) allowed it. Does that make a difference? Islam tends to allow it. If your brother were a Muslim, would that make a difference? Does it matter that polygamy generally isn't considered an inborn trait (that is the number of polygamists isn't really consistent across cultures)?

    What if your brother married a black woman, and wasn't welcome as a result? While I think you have a perfect right to say who is and is not invited in your house, I think people's perception of the morality of your stance would differ.

    I have to say, your hypothetical brother needs to settle down and stop putting his family through so much turmoil. Gay, straight, polygamist... who can keep track?!?

  4. #74
    Senior Member eagleseven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    Good job standing up for yourself, Amphion. Eagleseven inadvertently proved your point about the "You're with us or you're against us" stigmatizing used by the gay lobby. He also somehow inferred a point of view (antigay) that you never stated.
    We are stigmatizing homophobic tendencies, and Amphion was attempting to discredit the stigma. He's parrying our attack, yet claims neutrality?

    We are actively doing it, and succeeding. There is nothing inadvertent about this.

    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    It was clear (to me at least) that if you had a dog in the fight, you weren't showing your cards.
    "Where you see pathological fear of blacks, I see contempt. You may think it's small minded, or based on illegitimate premises, but I don't view it as fear-based."

    Does the above quote defend the worldview of racists?
    Does the below quote defend the worldview of homophobes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphion;
    Where you see pathological fear of homosexuality, I see contempt. You may think it's small minded, or based on illegitimate premises, but I don't view it as fear-based.

  5. #75
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Just a couple of things for the record, my opposition and honest abhorrence for homosexuality isnt anything to do with my faith...
    Oh dear. There's no amount of abuse I could sling that could do any more damage than you do to yourself.

    If there is a god, I thank him for not being you.

    Get well soon. I mean that.

  6. #76
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amphion View Post
    When good people make decisions because they sincerely believe they are doing the right thing, and those decisions are not based on fear or hate, but the desire to please God, then I think they should be met with understanding.
    Define: "Good people." Define: "Bad people."

    "The desire to please God."
    That comment suggests that any behavior can be justified by claiming: "Oh, we're just 'good people' trying to please God."
    Whose version of God might that be?

    There are those who commit violent acts of terror, thinking they are "pleasing God."
    They may consider themselves "good people," too.
    And according to you, they should be "met with understanding."
    I wonder if you would feel that way if someone you cared about was killed on 9-11.

    After all, those "dear fellas" killed all those people trying to get to the 72 virgins in the sky.
    Praise to Allah, kiddo. Praise to Allah. Those terrorists were "good people."
    They just wanted to please God - their version of God.

  7. #77
    Senior Member eagleseven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Your dramatising your epic struggle with the evils of all those who fail to share your views a little too much really.
    Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Just a couple of things for the record, my opposition and honest abhorrence for homosexuality
    Perhaps you would understand my concern, if you had friends who were assaulted by punks with "honest abhorrences for homosexuality".

    More publicly...


    This young man, currently in training to be a policeman, had his skull smashed in by a group of young punks as he was leaving a gay bar.

    Nobody is going to prison, even jail, for this assault...

  8. #78
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    So sex for a married post-menapausal women with her husband is abhorrent and sinful?



    The problem with analogies is they are never exact... plus there are so many to choose from! For polygamy there is Biblical support that God (grudgingly) allowed it. Does that make a difference? Islam tends to allow it. If your brother were a Muslim, would that make a difference? Does it matter that polygamy generally isn't considered an inborn trait (that is the number of polygamists isn't really consistent across cultures)?

    What if your brother married a black woman, and wasn't welcome as a result? While I think you have a perfect right to say who is and is not invited in your house, I think people's perception of the morality of your stance would differ.

    I have to say, your hypothetical brother needs to settle down and stop putting his family through so much turmoil. Gay, straight, polygamist... who can keep track?!?
    I dont think there's moral equivalence between race and homosexuality Seymour, I told you that before, I can understand why the liberals in the US try to get the kudos which goes with allusions to the black civil rights crusades though, its the same reasont that Bush co. wanted to liken themselves to the heroes of the second world war.

    I dont believe its sinful, I think that was ever so slightly facetious though.

  9. #79
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagleseven View Post
    Really?



    Perhaps you would understand my concern, if you had friends who were assaulted by punks with "honest abhorrences for homosexuality".

    More publicly...


    This young man, currently in training to be a policeman, had his skull smashed in by a group of young punks as he was leaving a gay bar.

    Nobody is going to prison, even jail, for this assault...
    The drama.

  10. #80
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    I am a big believer of the following.

    Too many people out there think that they can say whatever they want, and that they should not have to bear any consequences for voicing whatever ignorant trash comes out of their mouths.

    The folks who abuse freedom of speech, and do so flagrantly, really piss me off. People who try to use knowledge of civil rights and the legal system as a means of acting like an asshole with the expectation of not being held accountable are essentially well versed cowards.

    Shoot your mouth off, go ahead, but be ready to back it up, because one day you will get called on it, and words will not get you out of the trouble you stirred. This is simply probability at work.
    --------------------
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    MBTI -> (E) 77.14% | (i) 22.86% ; (S) 60% | (n) 40% ; (T) 72.22% | (f) 27.78% ; (P) 51.43% | (j) 48.57%
    BIG 5 -> Extroversion 77% ; Accommodation 60% ; Orderliness 62% ; Emotional Stability 64% ; Open Mindedness 74%

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