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  1. #41
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Well if Lark exercises his right to make homophobic comments, he shouldn't be too surprised if someone calls him an arsehole.

    Not very sophisticated, but neither's an egg.

    And your comment regarding "hateful purposes" was addressed previously. As you can never really know intent - only take a guess - it becomes highly speculative, particularly over the interwebs, what a poster's intentions really are.

    Are you 51% certain you have a window on someone else's motivations, FMW? I don't and I doubt you have, either. From a few lines on a forum?

    I did suggest there is a difference between likely consequences of "free speech" and perceived intent. You don't seem to have taken on board the distinction - instead you seem to recommend a faux civility.

    Perhaps I've picked you up wrong. But now for some more free speech - down the pub!

  2. #42
    Member Amphion's Avatar
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    The term "homophobic" is ridiculous unless the person in question displays an irrational and pathological fear of homosexuality. Principled disapproval doesn't count. Labeling people who hold different values than you as having a psychiatric disorder is really lame. I'd rather you just call him an asshole and leave it at that.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    I don't understand what you mean. My position is fully explained. The OP expressed concern that freedom of speech is used for hateful purposes, thus causing people to question the value of the concept. I agree that freedom of speech is used for hateful purposes, but rather than curtail the right (which I would find unacceptable), I pointed out that discretion should play a part and that exercising the right isn't always the best idea. Of course, as you point out, occasionally one should...after all, that's why the right is there.
    I'm not sure I believe in rights anymore, I prefer to think in terms of sociological norms and mores, perhaps legislated principles, which is what I think rights are, can be considered norms or attempts to make things normative but that's something else and whether it should be successful is a different story entirely.

    Rights can be pretty nebulous when you think about it, for instance if you say a lion has a right to an antelope for breakfast, well what happens to the right if there arent any around? Then again that is a statement of a right in a positive sense, I know that the freedom of speech for instance is a negative right, as in the state will be circumscribed and prohibited from acting.

    My points a pretty simple one, behaving in an incivil and insulting manner and then invoking freedom of speech is BS, its BS on a private moderated forum but its doubly BS because it brings the very idea of freedom of speech into disrepute and is disrespectful of the sacrifices of the fallen.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amphion View Post
    The term "homophobic" is ridiculous unless the person in question displays an irrational and pathological fear of homosexuality. Principled disapproval doesn't count. Labeling people who hold different values than you as having a psychiatric disorder is really lame. I'd rather you just call him an asshole and leave it at that.

  5. #45
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amphion View Post
    The term "homophobic" is ridiculous unless the person in question displays an irrational and pathological fear of homosexuality. Principled disapproval doesn't count. Labeling people who hold different values than you as having a psychiatric disorder is really lame. I'd rather you just call him an asshole and leave it at that.
    I agree that "homophobic" is a discussion ender and should be applied with extreme caution. I think pushing for clarification to seek out the principles and information behind the stance can be a worthwhile endeavor.

    Given my personal experiences, I can't help but feel that most major objections to homosexuality boil down to religious, traditional and/or emotional reasoning. Usually that reasoning isn't alterable by discussion, but the possibility for greater understanding remains.

    Half of my own family is made up of religious conservatives who disapprove. I still hold out hope, though.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I agree that "homophobic" is a discussion ender and should be applied with extreme caution. I think pushing for clarification to seek out the principles and information behind the stance can be a worthwhile endeavor.
    If you mean that opening a discussion instead of using name calling to end it is worthwhile I'd agree but if you're implying that under scrutiny its all just phobia of one shape or another I'd disagree.

    Given my personal experiences, I can't help but feel that most major objections to homosexuality boil down to religious, traditional and/or emotional reasoning. Usually that reasoning isn't alterable by discussion, but the possibility for greater understanding remains.

    Half of my own family is made up of religious conservatives who disapprove. I still hold out hope, though.
    And not to question that at all, your personal experience that is, but the characterisation of perspectives or principles as religious, traditional or emotional is generally a disdainful and dismissive characterisation.

    Now I'm willing to accept that contexts and being discussed here in which you could be entirely correct, perhaps the mainstream of opposition to homosexuality in the US could be characterised this way, I dont know, I dont live there, what I do know is its a generalisation and as a consequence is apt to be falsifiable.

    You could as easily say that all the supporters of homosexuality are secularist, modernist and rationalist, which patently wouldnt be the case, the idea that any unfavourable, perhaps even neutral, discussion of sexuality results in accusations of homophobia should be evident enough that becoming emotionally riled up and angry is an affliction of both sides of that particular debate.

  7. #47
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amphion View Post
    I'd rather you just call him an asshole and leave it at that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Since we're all in agreement, then, Lark is an arsehole!

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphion View Post
    The term "homophobic" is ridiculous unless the person in question displays an irrational and pathological fear of homosexuality.
    What, like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'll be honest with you, if my brother was homosexual he'd not be invited if he had a partner with him, not to my house or I suspect my parents house...
    and this, 2 minutes ago:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    You could as easily say that all the supporters of homosexuality are secularist, modernist and rationalist...
    Have you read the thread, Amphion? If you have then perhaps you could explain the above comments as anything other than - as you put it - "pathological fear of homosexuality"?

    If not accepting a brother into your home, specifically because he is gay, does not display a pathological fear of homosexuality, well I don't know what does.

    I'd be interested in hearing your opinion, Amphion.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm not sure I believe in rights anymore
    You have the right to call people "losers," who seek your help as a social worker.
    Not only do you have the right, you exercised that right in this forum.
    You post disparaging remarks about those less fortunate, but that's okay to you.
    But if someone makes a remark about the Pope, who is being investigated for covering up for other priests committing child abuse, it's not okay with you.
    Clearly, objectivity is out the window here.

    But then as usual, Lark, you can drop this thread and start another, and another, and another, and another, and another, to keep spinning off the same point of view.
    If someone disagrees with you, all you do is run away and begin again.

    I think a blog is a good option for you.

  9. #49
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sLiPpY View Post
    Generally, that's the moment where the other little kid got introduced to "Mr. Fist."
    Heh heh heh. I wish. I was really tiny as a kid... I think the most aggressive I'd have been would have been to shove the person and then run away really fast or something.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Heh heh heh. I wish. I was really tiny as a kid... I think the most aggressive I'd have been would have been to shove the person and then run away really fast or something.
    When I think about it my childhood was populated with kids who were ultra violent and aggressive in a split second, its a wonder I've actually survived as well as what I have done and probably a good thing that I've proven so capable of repressing a lot of shit. The path of least resistance makes a lot of sense sometimes.

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