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  1. #31
    Senior Member Feops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Mocking Muslims in the West today is like mocking Judaism in Nazi Germany.
    How?

    In canada at least, I don't think there's a layer of discrimination or hate. There may be a layer of confusion though, about why this group of people is apparantly exempt from our typical notion of open speech, and is so quick to throw death threats that even their less radical members fail to refute.

  2. #32
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Of course the religion deserves to be mocked purely on its own terms but if you line up with the prejudices of the time to kick a minority, then I've got no sympathy for you at all.
    How would you distinguish one from the other from a distance?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #33
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    How would you distinguish one from the other from a distance?
    It's not very easy to, which is why I have no time for the "freedom of speech" arguments when it comes to Muslim-baiting.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  4. #34
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feops View Post
    How?
    I suspect that he believes Muslims are an exceptionally oppressed people scapegoated by the capitalist West in order to divert attention away from our unjust exploitation of the world's resources. He also might believe that Islamism, in the absence of strong Marxist movements, is a useful means of resistance (and possible ally) against big bad us, and views (non-leftist) attacks against it as strengthening dominant reactionary forces, and therefore to be opposed.

  5. #35
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    He also might believe that Islamism, in the absence of strong Marxist movements, is a useful means of resistance (and possible ally) against big bad us, and views (non-leftist) attacks against it as strengthening dominant reactionary forces, and therefore to be opposed
    Perhaps you could explain how South Park mocking all Muslims is an "attack on Islamism"...? (unless you think the two are synonymous).
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  6. #36
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    *shrug* I saw the episode and didn't even realize the censorship was imposed, I thought it was part of the gag until now.

    It's not like they didn't make Jesus look like a damned fool either (watching internet porn, for example), you know -- at least they're fair. Which helps with the idea they're just poking fun at sacred cows.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #37
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Perhaps you could explain how South Park mocking all Muslims is an "attack on Islamism"...? (unless you think the two are synonymous).
    The censorship of the image of Mohammed, for whatever purpose, is an aspect of Islamism. As to whether or not the two are "synonymous," that depends on your definition of "Islamism" and "Muslim" (I don't consider violence or opposition to procedural democracy to be characteristics of Islamism, if that helps). I do consider anyone who (as a legal proscription) opposes free speech and religious freedom on Islamic grounds to be at least a moderate Islamist. A Muslim, on the other hand, is anyone who thinks of themselves as such.
    Last edited by lowtech redneck; 04-23-2010 at 04:12 PM. Reason: clarification

  8. #38
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    The censorship of the image of Mohammed, for whatever purpose, is an aspect of Islamism. As to whether or not the two are "synonymous," that depends on your definition of "Islamism" and "Muslim" (I don't consider violence or opposition to procedural democracy to be characteristics of Islamism, if that helps). I do consider anyone who (as a legal proscription) opposes free speech and religious freedom on Islamic grounds to be at least a moderate Islamist. A Muslim, on the other hand, is anyone who thinks of themselves as such.
    Really? My grandmother doesn't think you should be able to mock the Pope publicly, is she "at least a moderate fundamentalist Catholic"...?

    In any case the whole issue of stirring up controversy around Islam, can only lead to more singling out of all Muslims and intesnification of the discrimination they already suffer.

    If someone wishes to attack Islamists they can simply carry out a specific satire on them, which wouldn't be hard to do. But neither would it be as sensationalist and good for ratings.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  9. #39
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Really? My grandmother doesn't think you should be able to mock the Pope publicly, is she "at least a moderate fundamentalist Catholic"...?
    Yes (nothing personal, my grandmother was at least a moderate racist before she developed advanced dementia). And yes, if I lived in the nineteenth century, I would be anti-clerical due to what was overwhelming opposition to essential political freedoms by the Catholic church.

    Anyway, South Park has never singled out Muslims more than other groups (quite the opposite).

  10. #40
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    ...Anyway, South Park has never singled out Muslims more than other groups (quite the opposite).
    I'm still a little lost.

    The episode I saw made fun of the Pope, and scientologists, and Jesus (who had a porn addiction and took his own name in vain numerous times as a punchline), and Buddha (who was snorting coke numerous times), and Mohammed just happened to be the convenient centerpiece of the superteam to pick because no one is allowed to say his name/show his image; it was a dramatic choice, not a "screw Muslims" choice. If I had been writing it blind, I would have probably picked that angle too.

    Or is someone saying that viewers are too ... ummm... uneducated so to speak in order to realize the difference, and so anti-Muslims will just be further incited by the episode?

    I'm not sure any comedy is safe, if that is the reasoning here.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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