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  1. #21
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    To be honest I've begun to go sour on the whole idea of rights altogether and think that is more and more the case of being nonsense on stilts like the objectors to the French Revolution suggested.

    Its away beyond condemning institutions as based upon violations of the natural order and become about feelings of entitlement/desert, closely paralleled by the consumerism in the economy, or victimhood.

    Like from someone who's an avowed socialist that sort of sentiment is bound to be surprising and it surprises me myself too. I dont believe I've been duped by conservative populism either.
    You'd think differently if you've ever had your "rights" taken away from you, but aside from that, rights really boil down to respect for other people.
    Perhaps, I see it differently, but then I wouldn't wish some of my experiences on anyone. There's a difference between a sense of entitlement, and refusal to acknowledge even the most basic human rights.
    Last edited by CrystalViolet; 04-22-2010 at 10:23 AM. Reason: add in relevant quote, and make post sensical
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
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  2. #22
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    ...cases like these and even worse happen all the time all over the world. It's not so easy to convert sympathy into action and so sympathy will become useless other than to project a good image to yourself for yourself. Now how can we change the world?

  3. #23
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakysage View Post
    ...cases like these and even worse happen all the time all over the world. It's not so easy to convert sympathy into action and so sympathy will become useless other than to project a good image to yourself for yourself. Now how can we change the world?
    By starting with one couple.


    ... I am not totally kidding either. This is the same problem with religious activism -- it thinks it can fix the world by converting/controlling the government, in order to mobilize forces and demand conformity to its ideals. Really, change happens in the lives on individual people.

    You -- one person -- cannot change the world for everyone... but you can change the world for people you run into daily. We each have our own little ground to cover; and if we took responsibility for our little piece, the world would be changed.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #24
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Alright, I still think that it is a property rights, instead of a gay rights issue, I also think its important that its framed that way.
    This is absolutely a gay rights issue, because you have a situation where the couple probably would have married, had they been allowed - and if they had, none of this would have happened. It also may be a case of specific discrimination at the hospital, where they may have allowed an unmarried straight couple visitation rights.

    This is also a property rights issue, specifically for elderly people. I'm horrified that the government can seize control of property for no reason! There must be some rationale there that isn't being explained in the article. Perhaps serious outstanding debts?

    This is also a marriage rights issue, where you have unmarried couples being treated like garbage, like their relationship is meaningless. Marriage gives too many basic rights imo...like the right to visit a dying loved one - how can they do that?? Marriage is way too big a deal legal-wise, in some situations.

    You can't separate these issues, they're all relevant to the situation.

    You think its fair to attack all religious because of the actions of people like westbro baptists?
    I don't think anyone here is attacking all religious, particularly since a few posters are religious. Cut out the strawman stuff.
    -end of thread-

  5. #25
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    So, did they have anything good?
    What is that supposed to mean?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #26
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Jenn, I woudnt describe homosexuals as social undesirables and I dont believe that they are marginalised as a consequence of being threats to the status quo or anything like that.
    Again... I would.

    (And honestly, how can you possibly comment on what happens in my environment in regards to homosexuals, when you're halfway around the world? You don't have any experience here to draw from, and you also don't offer any hard facts about my environment to show you understand it. That leaves you with little but these off-the-cuff generalizations of my side of the world.)


    That's not a good thing and I dont believe that its effects will be restricted to sexual orientation wars, marriage and parenthood are massive issues, changing them with a stroke of a legislators pen is patently impossible, simple as, attempting too, I believe, is a recipe for disaster too.
    I don't think so, in a situation where the culture is slowly changing. We've already reviewed this data a few times too, but you seem to forget: Gay marriage is becoming more and more acceptable in the United States with each successive generation, and the reason many of the anti-same-sex marriage laws were passed within the last 15 years were because the conservatives realized this and wanted to make the shift as difficult as possible while they still had the majority. The writing is on the wall.

    So in that case it doesn't seem much different than the race issue in the 50's/60's. The culture was changing, there was SOME upheaval because people tried to hurry it a bit, but eventually things got nudged over. Why do you keep insinuating that this is about a few legislators imposing their will on a largely opposed majority? That's really not the case; it's a heated issue where the two sides are coming close to balance, and the majority is predicted to lose power within another 10-20 years. So it's already unstable -- the sides are large enough now that there will be clamor and dissent no matter which view is legislated.

    In this instance it was a case of property rights and should have been addressed as such.
    Randomnity answered this question decently enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by lateralus
    What is that supposed to mean?
    Check eBay.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I will just tell you the way my husband looks at it. In the nineties some private companies and municipalities, etc started granting gay partners benefits like medical insurance. Religious Right groups found out about it and pitched a huge fit.

    They boycotted companies and attacked people politically -- that kind of thing. Basically, they did everything they could to screw people in gay partnerships and domestic partnerships in general over. Their rationale was that they weren't married and so did not deserve benefits.

    In doing this, they pushed gays into a corner. If they wanted to be treated like equal citizens with rights that straight couples were eligible for they had to have legal recognition for their relationships. And that is what they've been fighting for ever since.
    This stuff is happening all the time.

    Cases typical to this: The new VA governor moved in and removed sexual preference from the list of anti-discrimination for government hire for that state. It was considered protected by the prior administration, but the new one didn't care for it... so he just dumped it.

    A transwoman got chosen to be placed on a particular government committee in the Obama administration-- not a Cabinet position or anything, but a position of some authority in the technical realms. She was perfectly qualified for the work, but immediately right-wing groups started bitching and plastering her face around as a "threat" because she now lives and functions as a woman in society and the government actually wanted to take advantage of her professional capabilities. Bush would have never hired her.

    I could dredge up case after case of this anti-LGBT sentiment; yes, it's part of the tapestry.

    In contrast, personally I don't care if someone identifies as an evangelical Christian, as long as they don't try to control or limit my life. I have faith of my own, and I like to see people who believe in something beyond the seen and have a moral compass; but I wouldn't bitch about an evangelical being given high government authority, as long as they were not abusing said authority to mandate their faith. And this pretty much seems to be the way of it -- most people only have a bone to pick with conservative religious influence when it tries to dominate and control. That particular conflict now has being going on so long that bad feelings arise immediately.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #27
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    By starting with one couple.


    ... I am not totally kidding either. This is the same problem with religious activism -- it thinks it can fix the world by converting/controlling the government, in order to mobilize forces and demand conformity to its ideals. Really, change happens in the lives on individual people.

    You -- one person -- cannot change the world for everyone... but you can change the world for people you run into daily. We each have our own little ground to cover; and if we took responsibility for our little piece, the world would be changed.
    Yes. You are correct. However, can you yourself even influence everyone around the world to help change the world for people around them daily? One would need to be stronger in influence then only the people one would run into daily. We have communication at a mass scale and is easy to get across to many people at many parts of the world. The idea is to do it with one's own talents and skills and then one will be able to get far in a more global scale. Have many people do the same and we have a stronger influence across the world. Books, internet, newspapers, T.V., lectures, etc. We have all the means to make the influence strong. All that is required is the will.

  8. #28
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    This is just awful.

    Apparently, the suspicion of domestic assault got the ball running, so I guess the power of attorney and the medical directives were thus void? And this gave the county the "rights" to go about as they did?

    Meet Harold and Clay | The Bilerico Project

    At the time of Harold's fall he had already been experiencing some degree of mental impairment, and had been drinking. He fell down the stairs and became angry when Clay wanted to call an ambulance because he was afraid of what the result might be. (And as it turned out, he had good reason to be.) The paramedics who arrived on the scene suspected the possibility of abuse. But that suspicion was false. What happened over the next two months is when the nightmare truly began. Once Harold was released from the hospital to a nursing home, the county refused to tell Clay where Harold had been placed, forced Clay into a nursing home where he did not need to be, auctioned all of his possessions, including treasured and valuable works of art and family memorabilia, and took away his two beloved cats. The level of inhumanity is staggering.
    Lawsuit ignites firestorm in gay community against Sonoma County | PressDemocrat.com

    “When the facts come out, the story that’s being thrown out will be found inaccurate in number of respects,” Spaulding said. “The case came to the public guardian when Scull reported he had been assaulted by Clay Greene.”

    He said the two men were separated for their own protection.
    Still, forcing Clay to be in a nursing home. What was that all about? "For his own protection" again, I presume. :rolli: I guess the lease was only in Harold's name then...

    Sad, just sad. People blindly following the "procedures". Gay or not, who knows how many people have gone through similar ordeals.

  9. #29
    Senior Member JHBowden's Avatar
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    Don't worry guys, I'm sure it was for The Common Good.

    Napoleon is always right!

  10. #30
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    I totally support homosexual marriage and agree that homosexual couples should have the same rights/benefits as heterosexual ones. I have great sympathy for Mr. Green and any one facing the death of their loved one.

    That said, I think it's generally good practice to read multiple sides of a story on such a volatile topic. I’m a little skeptical of the objectivity of a source described as “daily experiments in LGBTQ”, just as I’d be skeptical of the objectivity of a source like “Protect Marriage and Families” or something like that. Both sides will use loaded language and emotional manipulation. If I'm going to read about an incident like this at all, I try to read some sources from both "sides," as well as try to find one from a more neutral source, just to see if I can get a better sense of what's going on before I allow myself to get so emotionally involved. Partly why I don't read the news so much...

    Some more food for thought:

    Lawyer Says Concerns About Domestic Violence Prompted Separation of Gay Partners - Bay Area Blog - NYTimes.com
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

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