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  1. #41
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The capitalists would suggest that everyone behaving greedily makes for a self-regulating, efficient, effective and constanty improving system in terms of allocative optimality, risk management and stability.

    Epic Fail huh?
    That could only be the case if the rules of the game were such that you could only make money when you did something that benefited the country, as whole. That is obviously not the case. Financial institutions have been allowed to enter into situations where they have a conflict of interest, where they could make MORE money if they did things that were in direct conflict with the interests of their customers.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    That could only be the case if the rules of the game were such that you could only make money when you did something that benefited the country, as whole. That is obviously not the case. Financial institutions have been allowed to enter into situations where they have a conflict of interest, where they could make MORE money if they did things that were in direct conflict with the interests of their customers.
    I know but the idea being that this wouldnt happen, magically or because of invisible hands or what ever propaganda the rich guys thought up and sounded great in a student textbook.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Tell that to those on a waitlist for a kidney xD
    Somewhat taken out of context but...hell, I'll roll with it.
    Perhaps we could borrow kidneys from foreign countries to keep the ones on the list afloat till they get a real one! ;P

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Hmm, yeah, we all got to suffer so the system can be proven to operate just how the theory suggests? Come on, not even the fortune five hundred and 1% have bought that one my friend, what do you figure life in social darwinist land is going to be like?
    You wanna bail out the ones that fuck up? Why not give that money to the guys who do it right instead?

  5. #45
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I know but the idea being that this wouldnt happen, magically or because of invisible hands or what ever propaganda the rich guys thought up and sounded great in a student textbook.
    The invisible hand idea only works if all humans are highly moral and ethical individuals. You don't need rules if people are always going to "do the right thing". It would be nice if the world worked that way. It was probably more applicable in the past than today.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tantive View Post
    You wanna bail out the ones that fuck up? Why not give that money to the guys who do it right instead?
    I'd really prefer not to give the rich guys any tax money.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The invisible hand idea only works if all humans are highly moral and ethical individuals. You don't need rules if people are always going to "do the right thing". It would be nice if the world worked that way. It was probably more applicable in the past than today.
    Hmm, maybe, the irony is that Adam Smith's ideas about market forces where that they could do a sort of social alchemy, individual avaratiousness, caprice etc. could be transformed into common good or good for the other, hence is quote (my second favourite from Smith) that it wasnt from benefice that the butcher, baker, candlestick maker supplied his needs.

    Perhaps it was true of the times, perhaps it was just an optimistic observation of social trends, at very a very relative trend, its certainly not true today. Or at least its as true as Jefferson's utopia of independent, self-sufficient yeoman farming households.

    I reckon that Marx and Engels criticism of economics remains fair, they said Smith wasnt as reprehensible as later economists like Mill because the later ones had ample time to examine and know that the narrative wasnt accurate and long since degraded to an ideology or flag of convenience by interest groups.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'd really prefer not to give the rich guys any tax money.
    Currently you don't really have a choice in the matter, they're giving it to the rich guys who fucked up. Might as well let the rich guys know who fuck up, get fucked in the process. Might as well give the money to starting endevours and create some jobs, but whoops...they have too much regulation to worry about. Getting succesful is going to be much harder. How are they gonna get the capital they need to startup? Ah yes, banks...but oh hmm...people aren't saving their money there, since there isn't much to gain in it. Aw shucks. Perhaps interest rates should go up a bit. Gasp, but the fed is keeping it low! But wait, the banks have been fucking up repeatedly! They don't care, the fed comes in to save the day, get out of jail cards for everyone! ...... printing out of the mess is a perfect plan, it cannot go wrong!

  9. #49
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Hmm, maybe, the irony is that Adam Smith's ideas about market forces where that they could do a sort of social alchemy, individual avaratiousness, caprice etc. could be transformed into common good or good for the other, hence is quote (my second favourite from Smith) that it wasnt from benefice that the butcher, baker, candlestick maker supplied his needs.

    Perhaps it was true of the times, perhaps it was just an optimistic observation of social trends, at very a very relative trend, its certainly not true today. Or at least its as true as Jefferson's utopia of independent, self-sufficient yeoman farming households.

    I reckon that Marx and Engels criticism of economics remains fair, they said Smith wasnt as reprehensible as later economists like Mill because the later ones had ample time to examine and know that the narrative wasnt accurate and long since degraded to an ideology or flag of convenience by interest groups.
    I don't think anyone can reasonably argue against the idea that Christianity was much more important to society in the 18th century than it is in the 21st century. Society has changed so much since then, we've had to reevaluate practically everything. Though, some people are slower to adjust their perspective than others.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I don't think anyone can reasonably argue against the idea that Christianity was much more important to society in the 18th century than it is in the 21st century. Society has changed so much since then, we've had to reevaluate practically everything. Though, some people are slower to adjust their perspective than others.
    Well I reckon, from reading Mill, that classical economists didnt expect capitalism would become normative, I think they thought it would operate in a way to harness bad behaviour until education lead to bad behaviour disappearing, instead the bad behaviour became the norm, the needed norm without which success was/is impossible.

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