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  1. #21
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    People are no less greedy than before, so why wouldn't it happen again?
    The capitalists would suggest that everyone behaving greedily makes for a self-regulating, efficient, effective and constanty improving system in terms of allocative optimality, risk management and stability.

    Epic Fail huh?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Taxation.

    *gasp* *the horror* *the horror* *gasp*

    Right...and where are the taxpayers going to get the money from?
    A recession is the balances the market back out, which is fine. If you interfere with it happening, it only gets longer.

    Proceeding with the current actions, the economy already is in permanent decline. Service sector needs to make way for production in the private sector. You must decrease spending, even if it leads to job loses....which is already happening, just drawn out...and the currency is getting destroyed in the process. Let people save their money, raise interest...gain a capital to work with. Business that went bankrupt in this recession simply were incompetent to begin with, so let it be liquidated. Somebody else will buy it up and do it better.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tantive View Post
    Right...and where are the taxpayers going to get the money from?
    Oh, oh wait! You imagine that everyone's struggling to pay their taxes?!


  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The capitalists would suggest that everyone behaving greedily makes for a self-regulating, efficient, effective and constanty improving system in terms of allocative optimality, risk management and stability.

    Epic Fail huh?
    You're blaiming capitalism? Wrong.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Oh, oh wait! You imagine that everyone's struggling to pay their taxes?!
    Everyone? No....but enough, and it's increasing by the day.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Feops's Avatar
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    Seeing this discussion from Canada is sort of weird.

    We had a dip, mostly indirectly from all our trading partners being screwed, and now that everyone is in recovery mode we're bouncing back very strong. Our dollar is high and the bank is raising rates to cool growth/inflation.

    I'd love to see a local housing implosion though. I want to buy a cheap house!

  7. #27
    Senior Member Eckhart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The capitalists would suggest that everyone behaving greedily makes for a self-regulating, efficient, effective and constanty improving system in terms of allocative optimality, risk management and stability.

    Epic Fail huh?
    While I am not believing in the self-regulating powers of a free market leading into a preferable result either, it would definitely be interesting to see how things would go on if the states wouldn't socialize the losses of the banks at the cost of the taxpayers* but instead let them go bankrupt.

    That way the greedy, unresponsible risky speculation actions would have been punished, and people might actually learn from it. Now the governments have stepped in and saved their asses without any consequences. The only thing that those people will have learned from it is that they can do and let what they want, if everything goes wrong, the state will safe them again, and the little man will pay*.

    What would happen if the banks would went bankrupt? New banks would take their places. People who had their money in those banks would loose their money (in a free market!), but although it seemed never realistic, banks may get bankrupt, so you have to calculate it in. Now, people would loose their trust into banks probably so banks would actually have to increase the interest (right translation? I mean the %) on the money they take, so that people actually will still want to put their money into banks. Credits would be more expensive that way. Probably to avoid that the government would try to build up new trust into the banks with new regulations and laws, which the banks will have to accept without any moaning, if they want to lure customers to them again. That way people would have learned from that, the states would save money and further such happenings would be probably avoided in the future.


    *Taxpayers you can not really say actually, at least not 100%. Debts from the banks get paid with new credits the state takes ironically from another bank. The states don't "have" this money, and they don't increase their taxes to pay the new debts (here in Germany even lowering them). This system is already here weird if you ask me - the state has to take credits with interest on those credits to get new money to pay things, but where does this money come from? From a bank which pulls out the money from nowhere. The states could print their own money and send it into the economy without paying also interest on credits, and it would be no different. Of course a reasonable state wouldn't want to print unlimited amounts of money for obvious reason.


    PS: It is already late, so I hope I didn't write bad mistakes because of tiredness.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tantive View Post
    You're blaiming capitalism? Wrong.
    Capitolism must be regulated, or this is what you get, along with massive environmental destruction.

  9. #29
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    America will ultimately not be able to continue spending money like we are and remain a first world power.

    As our debt increases, the percentage of our GDP that has to go to paying it off increases. As the % of GDP that has to go to paying off the debt increases, our ability as a nation to finance new gov't programs decreases.

    As we continue to create expansionist gov't programs, despite our growing inability to pay for them, the gov't will have one of two options.

    1) raise taxes: this option can work, but given the nature of American politics, and how taboo and unpopular it is to raise them (at least on everyone, no one gives a shit when its just done on the rich), the government will probably punt on this issue. The gov't may raise taxes, but they will be kept from raising them enough to make a difference by the middle class on down.

    2) outsource our debt to foreign countries willing finance it: this option, is infinitely more attractive to gov't because, it is a financial concept beyond the understanding of your average voter. Also, it allows the gov't to maintain the facade that everything is fine, and thereby, guarantee that the incumbent seats within congress will be maintained.

    This second option, is much like using an anesthetic on a injured patient, but then forgoing the surgery afterwords. In the short term, it allows the government to keep spending the US out of house and home without anyone being the wiser, but in the long run it can only serve to weaken the position of the US relative to other nations on the world stage.

    Luckily for congress, the check hasn't come due yet on all this cash it owes. We can make the minimum payments on it for a while at least.

    But as our ability to pay this debt decreases, foreign nations will become less and less confident in the dollar, and the capability of the US pay them what is owed.

    Even this won't really affect the way the public sees gov't spending.

    What it is going to take for people to realize that we can't spend like we are is a complete collapse of the dollar which will happen if we keep doing what we are doing. Once the foreign nations have lost confidence in the dollar and the US, they will cease to willingly finance our debt. Once that happens it will be too late to employ option one.

    Thus, by continuing to, finance ridiculous gov't programs, maintain three costly wars (those being in Afghanistan, Iraq [which we still have a significant amount of troops in by the way], and the war on drugs), and bailout businesses that would be better off dissolving, the US government is consciously depriving our country of any ability to remain a first world power.
    Taken from another thread I was posting in a while back.

    It's just a matter of time if we don't drastically reduce our debt burden...

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    Capitolism must be regulated, or this is what you get, along with massive environmental destruction.
    No no...you got this because of OVER regulation, not lack of it.

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