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  1. #71
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    Addressing why I thought Peguy statement was ridiculous....I may have skipped and edited out a rather large part of my thought process.
    I do believe life is sacrosinct, which is why I have spent a rather large proportion of my professional life, in the medical side of science, helping other medical professionals save lifes. You can see why I may have dismissed the argument rather quickly, understandably, but I guess I needed to state that.
    None of that makes Peguy's statements ridiculous.

  2. #72
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    This story is as much an argument against abortion as a car crash is an argument against cars.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  3. #73
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    None of that makes Peguy's statements ridiculous.
    Hmmm...the part where he suggested people who are pro-choice, don't neccesarily hold life as precious is the ridiculous part. Refer back to the rest of my posts. I just don't see why one life or more should be comprimised as a sacrifice to another unformed life, if they would rather choose not too, or more to the point, haven't got the resources to sacrifice.
    My pure reasoning is this, with particular regard to trisomy 21 children, is it particularly logical to put the life of a potentially very sick child ahead the health, peace of mind (and I mean stress levels etc), and financial status of the rest of the family, who for intents and purposes of this argument, are healty? Putting all other emotional concerns aside, and given that they, the parents, would chose not to do so, if given the choice?
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
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  4. #74
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    Hmmm...the part where he suggested people who are pro-choice, don't neccesarily hold life as precious is the ridiculous part. Refer back to the rest of my posts. I just don't see why one life should be comprimised as a sacrifice to another unformed life, if they would rather choose not too, or more to the point, haven't got the resources to sacrifice.
    My pure reasoning is this, with particular regard to trisomy 21 children, is it particularly logical to put the life of a potentially very sick child ahead the health, peace of mind (and I mean stress levels etc), and financial status of the rest of the family? Putting all other emotional concerns aside, and given that they, the parents, would chose not to do so, if given the choice?
    That's actually another way of saying you consider the utilitarian quality of life to be precious, not that you consider human life itself to be precious.

    The issue is complicated, and most people have a vague, middle-ground position based on tension (real or perceived) between the intrinsic value of human life and the utilitarian quality of life. Your dismissive attitude toward people who disagree with your priorities doesn't add anything constructive to the debate.

  5. #75
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Default Reverence for Life versus Reverence for Quality of Life

    I read a philosophy book called Reverence (or something like that) a few years back and I was able to take the concept of reverence and apply it to the difficult and divisive issue of abortion.

    It's simple really. You are both saying it.

    Some have a reverence for life, period. Some have a reverence for quality of life. And there appears to be no reconciling the two. Once one has developed one's mindset one way or the other, it becomes a deep conviction that is not easily flexed.

    We have decided as a nation that in allowing for abortion to be legal, we believe both ways of being are viable or should be protected. If abortion were illegal, only those with a reverence for life would be allowed to practice what they believe.
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  6. #76
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    That's actually another way of saying you consider the utilitarian quality of life to be precious, not that you consider human life itself to be precious.

    The issue is complicated, and most people have a vague, middle-ground position based on tension (real or perceived) between the intrinsic value of human life and the utilitarian quality of life. Your dismissive attitude toward people who disagree with your priorities doesn't add anything constructive to the debate.
    What chaps your ass more, the fact that I am, or the fact that I'm an NF that's doing it.
    My opinions have been dismissed a plenty on this site, but the minute I appear to do it, I'm not being constructive.
    I've presented my case and I've answered people's questions to the best of my ability, and justified my stance where ever possible. I'm not dismissing people, I'm dismissing arguments. Although granted my language is stronger than intended. What exactly is it you have issues with?
    And when you get right down, no I don't think any one life has intrinsic value. Life is too cheap and death comes too easily, but for all that, it doesn't make me a callous individual.
    Personally, I think all I'm guilty of here, is being a person with very strongly held beliefs, and people are reading way too much between the lines.
    For now I will just agree to disagree, and bow out of the discussion, as I'm unintentionally offending people that I essentially respect.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
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  7. #77
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    What chaps your ass more, the fact that I am, or the fact that I'm an NF that's doing it.

    I'm not dismissing people, I'm dismissing arguments. Although granted my language is stronger than intended. What exactly is it you have issues with?

    And when you get right down, no I don't think any one life has intrinsic value. Life is too cheap and death comes too easily, but for all that, it doesn't make me a callous individual.

    For now I will just agree to disagree, and bow out of the discussion, as I'm unintentionally offending people that I essentially respect.
    1.) um, I don't see what your type has to do with it or why it should affect my response. Besides, my T preference, while consistent, is not very pronounced.

    2.) Mostly, I had issues with you comparing Peguy (and by extension all those with similar positions) to the neglectful mother protester, and everything that goes with that. Its the equivalent of pro-lifers holding up a women who uses abortion in lieu of contraception without a care as the embodiment of pro-choice rationale and motivation.

    3.) I don't think you are callous, and I never meant to imply that you were; many people probably think the same of me due to my general prioritization of individual liberty over well-intentioned paternalism. For that matter, sentiments such as "live free or die" are based on having a quality-of-life emphasis in general (I also think the tension between the intrinsic value of life and the quality of life is a complicated continuum rather than a dichotomy, but I suppose that's another issue).

    4.) I'm always willing to agree to disagree, and I usually avoid abortion debates for the same reason (i.e, unintentionally offending people while debating an emotionally charged issue).
    Last edited by lowtech redneck; 04-26-2010 at 07:08 PM. Reason: more to add

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