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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    P.S. I'm not arguing for abortion BTW. I'm arguing for choice.
    In order to even argue about choice, one first has to actually affirm a certain value and appreciation for life as an end in itself - which renders abortion a rather abhorrent option to consider. So you have that inconsistency to contend with.

    Second-order issues concerning practical means about how best to care for down syndrome people do not cancel out the first-order issues regarding the fundamental value of human life.

    Historically speaking, enough people have died because they were deemed "lives unworthy of life" according to some arbitrary measure.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    In order to even argue about choice, one first has to actually affirm a certain value and appreciation for life as an end in itself
    Totally false assertion.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    In order to even argue about choice, one first has to actually affirm a certain value and appreciation for life as an end in itself - which renders abortion a rather abhorrent option to consider. So you have that inconsistency to contend with.

    Second-order issues concerning practical means about how best to care for down syndrome people do not cancel out the first-order issues regarding the fundamental value of human life.

    Historically speaking, enough people have died because they were deemed "lives unworthy of life" according to some arbitrary measure.
    If you can't see why that's a ridiculous argument. There's no hope for you. You're rather like one of the protestors that used to stand out of the local abortion clinic, where I used to live. She had seven-eight children, all taken away by child services. Yet she refused to see the hipocrisy of her protesting outside an abortion clinic.
    Life was so precious to her, yet she couldn't arsed to look after her kids properly. So second order issues do kinda cancel out the message of the first order. Unborn babies seem to be more precious than the children already born, it seems.
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  4. #54
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    In order to even argue about choice, one first has to actually affirm a certain value and appreciation for life as an end in itself - which renders abortion a rather abhorrent option to consider. So you have that inconsistency to contend with.

    Second-order issues concerning practical means about how best to care for down syndrome people do not cancel out the first-order issues regarding the fundamental value of human life.
    Yes, but as you just pointed out, the value of human life is a subjective one.

    Objective values do not require affirmation. I'm not saying life has no value, I'm saying each person values life differently. You, peguy, think life has objective value (which I'd like you to elaborate on). Clearly, not everyone agrees.
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Kangol's Avatar
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    I wonder what the doctor's been up to now? Disarming bombs? Betting on three-card monte? Maybe trying out for The Price is Right? I should get started on making online comics.

    Also, I'm gonna let Brendan ask questions for me, as all my potential responses that arose throughout the thread have been immediately posted by him.

  6. #56
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    If you can't see why that's a ridiculous argument. There's no hope for you. You're rather like one of the protestors that used to stand out of the local abortion clinic, where I used to live. She had seven-eight children, all taken away by child services. Yet she refused to see the hipocrisy of her protesting outside an abortion clinic.
    Life was so precious to her, yet she couldn't arsed to look after her kids properly. So second order issues do kinda cancel out the message of the first order. Unborn babies seem to be more precious than the children already born, it seems.
    Your example in no way refutes what Peguy said. Just because there are people who neglect their children does not mean their children would have been better off never being born.
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  7. #57
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Your example in no way refutes what Peguy said. Just because there are people who neglect their children does not mean their children would have been better off never being born.
    Yeah, you know what's interesting? FireyPhoenix never said that
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  8. #58
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    In order to even argue about choice, one first has to actually affirm a certain value and appreciation for life as an end in itself - which renders abortion a rather abhorrent option to consider. So you have that inconsistency to contend with.

    Second-order issues concerning practical means about how best to care for down syndrome people do not cancel out the first-order issues regarding the fundamental value of human life.

    Historically speaking, enough people have died because they were deemed "lives unworthy of life" according to some arbitrary measure.
    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    If you can't see why that's a ridiculous argument. There's no hope for you.
    If you have never heard that argument before you haven't talked to many people who don't agree with you. It might be good to try that, just to see what other people think, rather than just dismissing them without considering their thoughts. It always concerns me when people haven't looked outside their circle to see other people with conflicting opinions. I see that a lot on all sides of all issues. It makes it tedious to have discussions when you are talking to someone who have only talked to people like themselves since they don't see the weaknesses in their own arguments or the strengths in the opposing view point, since there always are both.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    Honestly I don't see human life as inherently valuable in any intrinsic sense. People live, people die, some babies are never born. Is it unfortunate that sometimes babies are aborted? Certainly. But the world keeps turning and I don't see how the world is inherently better for having one more human child in it, healthy or not.

    There are too many of us anyway.
    If you place inherent value on human life because it is human then abortion will seem almost evil to you since you are destroying something with inherent value. While I don't agree with it I can see that Brendan's thoughts are a much more logical reason for legalizing abortion than most of the "choice" tripe I see and hear. Of course, it also might be a good reason to legalize murder.

    It's hard for me to see why people feel that murder or abortion are different arguments. I think the difference people feel is between murder or abortion is that the person who should be caring for the child doesn't care so you might as well get rid of it. Whereas with murder there are people who would hurt if the person is murdered so you hear about it. It still doesn't answer why a mother can't kill her own child, perhaps if the mother and father agree on it.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurel View Post
    It might be good to try that, just to see what other people think, rather than just dismissing them without considering their thoughts.
    I think it was given due consideration. Some people believe that human life has intrinsic value. Others don't. Simply asserting one's belief repeatedly does not increase it's validity.

    It's hard for me to see why people feel that murder or abortion are different arguments.
    The main commonality is the killing of a human life. Aside from that, there are countless differences.

    There are many cases where it's OK to kill another human. Obvious examples are war and mercy killings.

  10. #60
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    Yeah, you know what's interesting? FireyPhoenix never said that
    No, not in exact words, but FP did say:

    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    No child should be condemned to an instutionlised life, or margilised to the side lines, as many of those children would be. It makes the argument for the sanctatity of life rather null and void, if a child is wasting away uncared for, or unable to get treatment because the parents don't have the resources.
    ..which seems to imply the message that no life at all is better than a life lived with hardship and neglect. But I'm perfectly willing to be corrected if I've misunderstood what Firey meant.
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