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  1. #41
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    As it happens, raising children, involves emotion. I remain unapologetic for trying illicit an emotional response in this argument, as it is so fundemental to the issue. People have a viseral emotional response, both side of the argument.
    Nevertheless, you still need a rational balance to it. Simply pointing to the problems Down syndrome people face doesn't argue in favor of abortion. It ultimately comes down to the issue of whether life is a means to an end or an end in itself. And the former largely is based upon subjective criteria concering "quality" of life; while the latter is based on objective criteria of human worth.

  2. #42
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    while the latter is based on objective criteria of human worth.
    *curious* how so?
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    It ultimately comes down to the issue of whether life is a means to an end or an end in itself. And the former largely is based upon subjective criteria concering "quality" of life; while the latter is based on objective criteria of human worth.
    Arbitrarily asserting that life is valuable is not a rational approach. You are simply stating a personal bias. There is absolutely no reason why another person is logically compelled to accept the assertion.

  4. #44
    Member Pandar's Avatar
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    Yes there are many flaws in the testing. Either from simple genetic innaccuracy or the fact of having twins in the womb can say that a child has a certain disease, including down syndrome, even though it is just the genetic chromosome information from the second fetus. Lots of things can go wrong....

    I am pro-choice though. Not because I hate babies or anything, I just feel that regardless of my opinions I should not force someone to keep a child they should not or could not raise. Such instances can cause a child more harm than good. -shrugs-
    I may burst into random song or sit quietly and read. I may argue about something I know nothing about, or help those in need. I don't know everything about the world, but I know me.

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  5. #45
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I wonder how many people that feel all children with congenital defects should be aborted have had any personal involvement with disabled or handicapped people. From my own experience, I have found that they have probably done more to positively change the people around them than many "normal" children have. I also would say that a greater percentage of them are happy and living fulfilled lives when compared to the average population.

    The criteria for what is a life worth living has a lot to do with our own personal experiences as well as where we believe life has come from, so it's difficult to really have a discussion here that doesn't end at an impasse.

    Interesting article, though Beefeater. Thanks for posting it.

  6. #46
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    The criteria for what is a life worth living has a lot to do with our own personal experiences as well as where we believe life has come from, so it's difficult to really have a discussion here that doesn't end at an impasse.
    I think it's also important to ask who's to make that distinction? I know I'm more than happy to decide if my own life is worth living. If someone else thinks theirs isn't, then they can kill themselves. Don't the handicapped deserve that same power?
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  7. #47
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    I think it's also important to ask who's to make that distinction? I know I'm more than happy to decide if my own life is worth living. If someone else thinks theirs isn't, then they can kill themselves. Don't the handicapped deserve that same power?
    Yes, I believe they do. No one knows the future. And there are plenty of stories of handicapped and otherwise "unwanted" children turning out to accomplish a tremendous amount in life.
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  8. #48
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Nevertheless, you still need a rational balance to it. Simply pointing to the problems Down syndrome people face doesn't argue in favor of abortion. It ultimately comes down to the issue of whether life is a means to an end or an end in itself. And the former largely is based upon subjective criteria concering "quality" of life; while the latter is based on objective criteria of human worth.
    Peguy,
    In view of the potential problems, Down's children aren't exactly going to be prime candidates for adoptions are they? Quality of life is a very real consideration. In some respects, much more of a consideration. No child should be condemned to an instutionlised life, or margilised to the side lines, as many of those children would be. It makes the argument for the sanctatity of life rather null and void, if a child is wasting away uncared for, or unable to get treatment because the parents don't have the resources.
    The objectivity of human worth is rather diminished in those circumstances.
    You must give people an informed choice,and null judgement what ever they choose. That is true objectivity.
    P.S. I'm not arguing for abortion BTW. I'm arguing for choice.
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  9. #49
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    while the latter is based on objective criteria of human worth.
    I believe no such thing exists.

    But as far as my own admittedly subjective beliefs go, I'd say it's better to have a world of 100 happy people than a world of 10,000 agonizing people.
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  10. #50
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Problem is that most people believe they should be part of the 100 alive people rather than the 9900 non-existent people.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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