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  1. #31
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexis View Post
    Thats a joke, once again the "life" that a mentally retarded, not gifted individual lives is a delusion. And thinking its anything else is also a delusion.
    WTF? Hey, maybe your life is a delusion. Why? Because I just decided it is. See, anyone can play god and decide whose life is worth living!
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  2. #32
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    killing fetuses and babies who are likely to have major mental or health problems is okay. I don't see how allowing them to live is beneficial to humanity, society or even the fetus/baby.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
    killing fetuses and babies who are likely to have major mental or health problems is okay. I don't see how allowing them to live is beneficial to humanity, society or even the fetus/baby.
    So human life is determined by their utilitarian credentials?

  4. #34
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    I have always found the abortion debate to appear kind of silly. Ideally we should be pro-choice and pro-life, but people think they have to choose one or the other. Ideally it should be everyone's responsibility to inform the person in question of why or why not to have an abortion and the person listening should have the responsibility to listen to everything everyone is telling them and make a responsible decision.

    But since people don't like to shoot for ideals and in-betweens, instead we have what happens with just about every authoritative power struggle in a society - a battle between the people who believe one thing (pro-choice) will do more good and the people who believe another thing (pro-life) will do more good. And it's a pointless battle, one that often leads to false improvement (where the ideal direction is the true improvement to go on), one that thrives on the calamity of the human desire to fight for what they believe in against others with just as much conviction in their opposing beliefs. And the battle ends when the soldiers find other battles that they would rather fight in or one side wins and there is a temporary peace before the defeated regroup, regenerate, and try again or leave to fight battles elsewhere.

    It's ridiculous. What should the side-liners do, the soldiers who deserted and the one's who were smart enough to not get involved? Care only about those close, take advantage of human instinctive mistakes for profit, enjoy everything that the Earth has except humanity, live out their life and have no regrets? Humanity, as a whole, makes no sense. But maybe that's the point. I really wish everything could be rationally explained though...to not know is the most irritating thing about life.

  5. #35
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Ironic timing of this thread...

    Today is the first birthday of Rebekah Faith, the daughter of one of my closest high school friends. Rebekah has trisomy 18, which is commonly considered 'incompatable with life' by doctors. My friend was told there was a strong chance Rebekah would not even be born.

    My friend has a very strong religious faith that factored into her decision to continue forward, but she and her husband agonized over all of these questions. It was not a matter of just assuming everything would be okay because of their faith, they spent a lot of time in tears and anger as they worked through what each potential option would mean for them, their other children, and this unborn baby. The likely possibilities were frightening and the odds were that things would end poorly... but in the end she and her husband decided they would carry this baby as long as it was viable. For them, it was the right answer.

    And so Rebekah was born.
    And now she is one.

    Miracle child to celebrate her first birthday April 17 in Simpsonville | greenvilleonline.com | The Greenville News

    I don't know if I would or could make the same decision as my friend did (although I also happen to have a special needs child -- cystic fibrosis, in my case). But she's my friend, and I support her in her decision and have always encouraged her to follow her heart.

    Frankly, everyone gets hung up on what life is "supposed to be." Who determines that? Who "plays God" and decides why one baby is worth saving and another isn't even worth the effort?

    We have such a pragmatic view of what "means something" that if a baby can't serve our direct purposes or have the sort of life we want for it, then we shouldn't bother. Who knows? But I think that's no one's responsibility but the parents or whoever will be caring for the child.

    Not all life lessons follow the conventional pattern. Sometimes the things that sculpt, change, influence, and actualize us the most are the unconventional, the inconvenient, the painful, the ludicrous. My friend kept her baby and, amazingly, she's still alive. And do you think this child and her survival has had a huge impact on a great number of people, for the better? Hell, yes. Even if she dies tomorrow, could one of us say Rebekkah should not have been born? Her life gone from the cosmic tapestry? (But it wouldn't be... there'd always been the sense of loss and who she might have been, never to be realized.)

    Maybe when I was younger, I could more easily draw up a scorecard based on my particular priorities in life and determined who should live and who should die... but that would have been immaturity on my part. Nowadays, I just see value in a lot that is not convenient and often painful. My son will have health issues until he dies, and he could die younger than his siblings, but he's extremely happy to be alive and probably the most exuberant of my three children, setting a fire under anyone he meets. So we are born, we live, we die. When we assess a life, a lot of the junk we go through seems to matter less than the overall impact of our lives or who we become during our lives. In the end, it just matters that we lived, and that we lived well regardless of what struggles we had to work through.

    I'm sure Sue's and her family's life has been enriched despite all the "conventional mess," and thus they did the better thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Yeah, I don't know a lot about people with Downs, but I'm under the impression that they are generally as happy as anyone else. The stereotype is that they are sweet and happy people on the whole.
    I knew one in high school, and he was very happy -- it was everyone else who had issues to work through, but all of the kids in my class loved him. He did eventually die young (I think ten years ago), but again, he brought a lot of joy to everyone who met and interacted with him, and part of that was because he was NOT conventional and like everyone else... so he shook people and forced them out of complacency and learn to see and enjoy life in a simpler way as he did, rather than complicating what joy should mean for us. Yes, there were issues to deal in regards to emotional and intellectual capability, but at the same times, I don't think I know anyone who would have rather he been aborted.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #36
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Peguy, it can be.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  7. #37
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexis View Post
    I never said anything about the child being perfect. But like someone else said in this thread Down-syndrome isnt just one issue, it can lead to many many different problems in a persons life and many DONT live a fullfilled life cause they die from complications half through life related to Down-syndrom. And im not talking about children who may be born with minor complications, im talking about the ones that will require society to help raise. The ones who will never be able to contribute to society, will only be a burdern and due to these things will never live life to the fullest imo. And if that makes you retch then so be it, id prefer to live in a society that discarded these useless individuals then allowing them to live this facade of a life.



    Have you ever talked to someone with downs? I havent, but how do you know they "enjoy" their lives so much? Yeah because of downs they tend to appear happy go lucky but thats mostly cause the ones who have it really bad cant tell real from not. Know i dont know about you but thats NOT life. Thats a delusion. And as for kids who are even more menatlly retarded. Well I remember seeing these kids in school and the only thing i could think of is why would anyone keep them alive. More than half the time they where screaming or crying cause they couldnt communicate their own needs well enough. Or would see others walking around normally and break out into hysteria. Anyone who looks can see it, these kids are NOT happy with their lives. Just no one likes to think of the alternative cause its a human life. To me its not a life, its a sick joke.

    Yes but at least those people were given the ability to make their lives better. Sorry if i think its cruel to allow someone to live an existence that requires them to depend upon someone their entire lives to function. If i got brain damage tomorrow, or found out i had Alzheimers i assure i would want to be tooken out to a shed and shot in the head.

    Thats a joke, once again the "life" that a mentally retarded, not gifted individual lives is a delusion. And thinking its anything else is also a delusion.
    Hmmm, I smell a tert Te need for strength and self sufficiency in this post. I hear you. For me personally-yes I totally agree that i would rather be dead than have to depend upon others to take care of me-there is something horrifically offensive about not being self sufficient.

    However that isnt a universal truth in anyway-that is our Tert Te sneaking through as a defensive barrier. Yesterday I saw the happiest little girl at the playground. She was about three with down's and was running and galloping about just like all the other kids. For that afternoon, for those few moments she was just as happy as any other kid on the playground. She will live with the mental state of a child forever-I have heard that Down's syndrome adults are amazingly loving in that sense. You hear these stories everyday.

    I personally would not abort a healthy baby or even a baby with Down's but for a very severe birth defect would be okay with that choice. However I would never apply that decsion to others. I recognize each family has very unique circumstances, thus should have the option regarding if they wish to dedicate a large portion of the rest of their life to caring for another person who is disabled. It is a huge commitment-but the disabled person can be VERY happy, even with their limitations.

  8. #38
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Sticks View Post
    I have always found the abortion debate to appear kind of silly. Ideally we should be pro-choice and pro-life, but people think they have to choose one or the other. Ideally it should be everyone's responsibility to inform the person in question of why or why not to have an abortion and the person listening should have the responsibility to listen to everything everyone is telling them and make a responsible decision.
    That idea doesn't fully work until killing other people or even just young children is considered a personal decision. We may eventually get there and then your idea would work a little better. We do tell people what they can and can't do all the time and people don't make responsible decisions all the time.

  9. #39
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    This is basically an appeal to emotion.
    As it happens, raising children, involves emotion. I remain unapologetic for trying illicit an emotional response in this argument, as it is so fundemental to the issue. People have a viseral emotional response, both side of the argument.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

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  10. #40
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fireypheonix
    You pro-lifers certainly take a dismissive attitude towards the parents of such a child. Down's children can range from being mildly disabled to very severely retarded (and that is the right word), they can have multiple congential heart problems, a high chance of developing leukemia, not to mention a host of other health problems. They are very lucky if they live past thirty, in that case they have a very high chance of developing early onset Alzehiemer's disease (or a condition very like that). Do you want to condemn parents to live through that? Or for that matter the child itself?
    You think a desicion to abort a child, especially at about 15-16 weeks, which is when trisomy 21 can be confirmed, is fracking easy? Try walking in thier shoes. Unless things have changed, the test aren't so inconclusive...trust me I worked in a laboratory where such testing occured. Especially with scans, and nucotranslucency testing, and a varity of blood tests and aminiocentesis. They are really sure.
    There things like medical insurance, and child care costs, which would be so much more due to special considerations. I'm actually pretty sure the parents couldn't get medical insurance for the child. Are you going to help the parents with the upkeep?
    It is unfortuanate with the above case, but get off the moral high horse, and look at the real life considerations of carrying out a Down's syndrome pregnancy. It's painful choice, no matter what you chose.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    This is basically an appeal to emotion.
    I bolded the things I thought were not an "appeal to emotion" in the way you are suggesting.

    Just because something involves emotional realities does not make it an "appeal to emotion." Typical emotions states and realities have to be treated realistically, not sloughed off. Emotional energy reserves are not infinite resources, they are explicitly finite. Thus, these things are real concerns that have to be taken into account when assessing the risk and costs of a particular choice, and you NEED a way to reasonably pay that cost; I think one would be irresponsible to not examine such needs ahead of time and take them into account.

    I am always for a measured review of the situation and taking as much into account as possible, but leaving the choice to the parents as much as possible.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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