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  1. #21
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    It's not very rational to base the value of human life on accidental factors.
    Pardon me for being colorful here, but let's be hypothetical...

    And suppose someone is born with a disorder that not only makes them mentally retarded, but somehow causes them to project massive amounts of radiation that inflicts illness to death upon those around them.

    Would it be rational to value that person's life that same as we value others?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #22
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexis View Post
    Thinking like the above is what scares me.

    First of all genetics have nothing to do with income...Second, a mentally retarded child will never be able to live life to the fullest like a healthy individual could. Im all for aborting babies that with almost absolute certainty will live an unfulfilled life or one full of pain and misery.

    But at the same time if a family wishes to raise such a child then who am I to say no to them? Even though id like to be able to.....
    I'm pro-choice but this kind of makes me want to retch. "Such a child"? You'd like to be able to say no to families who wish to raise their children who aren't born perfect? How would you react if someone voiced that opinion about children whose parents are not together at the time of the child's birth? Statistics prove those children are significantly less content in their lives than children born into intact families.

    People with Down's syndrome seem to enjoy their lives. At least, a similar proportion of people with Down's syndrome and people without Down's syndrome seem to enjoy their lives. Plenty of people with no neurological differences whatsoever will live unfulfilled or painful lives.

    "People of average intelligence will never be able to live life to the fullest like a mentally gifted individual will."
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  3. #23
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Yeah, I don't know a lot about people with Downs, but I'm under the impression that they are generally as happy as anyone else. The stereotype is that they are sweet and happy people on the whole.

    If you don't want to raise a child with special needs or you feel your family cannot handle the strain, I can see that. That the child will be unhappy or have a poor quality of life . . . that's a bit of a stretch.

    Also, in the US, at least, a child with Downs is going to be considered disabled and will probably be able to receive medicaid to cover all medical costs throughout their lifetime.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #24
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Yeah, I don't know a lot about people with Downs, but I'm under the impression that they are generally as happy as anyone else. The stereotype is that they are sweet and happy people on the whole.

    If you don't want to raise a child with special needs or you feel your family cannot handle the strain, I can see that. That the child will be unhappy or have a poor quality of life . . . that's a bit of a stretch.
    Exactly. Those are two totally different things.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  5. #25
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
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    Honestly I don't see human life as inherently valuable in any intrinsic sense. People live, people die, some babies are never born. Is it unfortunate that sometimes babies are aborted? Certainly. But the world keeps turning and I don't see how the world is inherently better for having one more human child in it, healthy or not.

    There are too many of us anyway.
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  6. #26
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    How can americans possibly say they view all life as equal when they allow 80-90% of babies with downs syndrome to be aborted.
    It takes a lot of resources to look after a child, so it is entirely the mother's right to decide whether or not she wants to raise one with developmental problems. Or one without.

    I never understood this sympathetic view regarding aborting fetuses.

    It's interesting to see how badly people treat one another, but mention a fetus and they will part the sea for it!

  7. #27
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
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    I'm pretty iffy on abortion now that I think about it. I think it'd be fucked up to get repeatedly knocked up or to repeatedly knock others up and abort every time because you don't feel like dealing with it, but how often are those the circumstances anyway? And regardless of the moral implications, I'm pro-choice. Why? Because if a woman wants an abortion badly enough, she'll get it, legal or not. I'd rather a woman get an abortion in a doctor's office than with a wire hanger.

    Also, I'm so happy I'll never have to deal with this moral dilemma personally
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Hexis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I'm pro-choice but this kind of makes me want to retch. "Such a child"? You'd like to be able to say no to families who wish to raise their children who aren't born perfect? How would you react if someone voiced that opinion about children whose parents are not together at the time of the child's birth? Statistics prove those children are significantly less content in their lives than children born into intact families.
    I never said anything about the child being perfect. But like someone else said in this thread Down-syndrome isnt just one issue, it can lead to many many different problems in a persons life and many DONT live a fullfilled life cause they die from complications half through life related to Down-syndrom. And im not talking about children who may be born with minor complications, im talking about the ones that will require society to help raise. The ones who will never be able to contribute to society, will only be a burdern and due to these things will never live life to the fullest imo. And if that makes you retch then so be it, id prefer to live in a society that discarded these useless individuals then allowing them to live this facade of a life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post

    People with Down's syndrome seem to enjoy their lives. At least, a similar proportion of people with Down's syndrome and people without Down's syndrome seem to enjoy their lives. Plenty of people with no neurological differences whatsoever will live unfulfilled or painful lives.
    Have you ever talked to someone with downs? I havent, but how do you know they "enjoy" their lives so much? Yeah because of downs they tend to appear happy go lucky but thats mostly cause the ones who have it really bad cant tell real from not. Know i dont know about you but thats NOT life. Thats a delusion. And as for kids who are even more menatlly retarded. Well I remember seeing these kids in school and the only thing i could think of is why would anyone keep them alive. More than half the time they where screaming or crying cause they couldnt communicate their own needs well enough. Or would see others walking around normally and break out into hysteria. Anyone who looks can see it, these kids are NOT happy with their lives. Just no one likes to think of the alternative cause its a human life. To me its not a life, its a sick joke.

    Yes but at least those people were given the ability to make their lives better. Sorry if i think its cruel to allow someone to live an existence that requires them to depend upon someone their entire lives to function. If i got brain damage tomorrow, or found out i had Alzheimers i assure i would want to be tooken out to a shed and shot in the head.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post

    "People of average intelligence will never be able to live life to the fullest like a mentally gifted individual will."
    Thats a joke, once again the "life" that a mentally retarded, not gifted individual lives is a delusion. And thinking its anything else is also a delusion.
    SDMF

  9. #29
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    Nonsense.

    Edit:

    I'm gonna suck babies down the drain if I feel like it, and if you attempt to stop me I'll chop you up and put you down that drain instead. Nuff said.
    Wow...I'm completely overwhelmed by your argumentation.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    You pro-lifers certainly take a dismissive attitude towards the parents of such a child. Down's children can range from being mildly disabled to very severely retarded (and that is the right word), they can have multiple congential heart problems, a high chance of developing leukemia, not to mention a host of other health problems. They are very lucky if they live past thirty, in that case they have a very high chance of developing early onset Alzehiemer's disease (or a condition very like that). Do you want to condemn parents to live through that? Or for that matter the child itself?
    You think a desicion to abort a child, especially at about 15-16 weeks, which is when trisomy 21 can be confirmed, is fracking easy? Try walking in thier shoes. Unless things have changed, the test aren't so inconclusive...trust me I worked in a laboratory where such testing occured. Especially with scans, and nucotranslucency testing, and a varity of blood tests and aminiocentesis. They are really sure.
    There things like medical insurance, and child care costs, which would be so much more due to special considerations. I'm actually pretty sure the parents couldn't get medical insurance for the child. Are you going to help the parents with the upkeep?
    It is unfortuanate with the above case, but get off the moral high horse, and look at the real life considerations of carrying out a Down's syndrome pregnancy. It's painful choice, no matter what you chose.
    This is basically an appeal to emotion.

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