User Tag List

123 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 23

  1. #1
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    4,809

    Default Christian Legal Society v. Martinez

    Justices Joust Over Christian Group's Rights-
    Dispute Centers on Whether Student Club Can Receive State Funding After Excluding Members Due to Their Beliefs


    Conservative and liberal justices on the Supreme Court dueled verbally over whether a student religious group has a constitutional right to receive state college funds while excluding homosexuals and others who violate its beliefs.

    The case, argued Monday, stems from San Francisco, where the University of California's Hastings College of the Law says its policy requires that student groups seeking benefits such as school funding or preferred access to meeting rooms admit any interested student.

    Hastings refused to accept the Christian Legal Society as a registered student group because, starting in 2004, the organization has held members to a "statement of faith" prohibiting "fornication, adultery and homosexual conduct."

    The society sued, contending that the Hastings antidiscrimination policy violated its First Amendment right to associate with those it chooses and to select members and officers committed to promoting its beliefs. Lower courts agreed with Hastings, setting up a Supreme Court argument...

    It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

    The dividing lines from the comments and questions were predictable: Roberts, Alito, Scalia, and presumably Thomas (he rarely involves himself in oral arguments) are with CLS. Ginsberg, Sotomayor, and Stevens are with Hastings. Breyer and Kennedy are the swing votes.

    Scalia made his viewpoint very clear:

    "To require this Christian society to allow atheists not just to join, but to conduct Bible classes...that's crazy,"

  2. #2
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    MBTI
    ESFJ
    Posts
    6,946

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Justices Joust Over Christian Group's Rights-
    Dispute Centers on Whether Student Club Can Receive State Funding After Excluding Members Due to Their Beliefs





    It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

    The dividing lines from the comments and questions were predictable: Roberts, Alito, Scalia, and presumably Thomas (he rarely involves himself in oral arguments) are with CLS. Ginsberg, Sotomayor, and Stevens are with Hastings. Breyer and Kennedy are the swing votes.

    Scalia made his viewpoint very clear:
    That IS crazy, but they really don't have a right to school (read: "taxpayer") funding for their group, either. They have the right to have a club and not be shut down, but government money is not supposed to go to groups that discriminate. Of course, this also means that government money is not supposed to go to groups that discriminate by gender or race, either, so they have an argument on those grounds if there is public money going to Women's or Minority Student organizations. Very interesting.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #3
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    4,809

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    but government money is not supposed to go to groups that discriminate.
    Yeah, but it depends on the basis of discrimination. It seems clear to me here that CLS is excluding people on the basis of belief and behavior not status.

    Of course this would also allow for public funding of a group that believed in white supremacy and excluded members who did not agree even though it technically allowed in blacks.

    The flip-side is that an all-comers policy would allow 50 skinheads to join a college NAACP group of 20 and over-run it.

  4. #4
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    MBTI
    ISTx
    Posts
    10,552

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    so they have an argument on those grounds if there is public money going to Women's or Minority Student organizations. Very interesting.
    Precisely. This should be interesting.

    Can someone keep me (us) posted?

  5. #5
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    4,809

    Default

    I'll let you know.

    There were some questions as to the facts and even the issue in the case. So there is the possibility that it could get sent back down to the district court. If they do that it will happen in the next 2 weeks otherwise we probably have to wait until the end of june for a full blown decision.

  6. #6
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Enneagram
    827 sp/so
    Posts
    20,122

    Default

    my basic opinion (having heard about it on the radio earlier) is that if the group is not willing to extend equal treatment in the same manner that other parts of the government extend it (military excluded) then it shouldn't expect the perks of being a part of that- only those of a non-affiliated organization

    it's not like they're banned- they just don't have priority
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  7. #7
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    4,809

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    my basic opinion (having heard about it on the radio earlier) is that if the group is not willing to extend equal treatment in the same manner that other parts of the government extend it (military excluded) then it shouldn't expect the perks of being a part of that- only those of a non-affiliated organization

    it's not like they're banned- they just don't have priority
    Many news reports are misreporting this case saying that CLS bans homosexuals or are discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation. On face that's just not true and in the oral arguments Alito and Roberts pointed that out. The CLS bylaws don't allow members to partake in immoral sexual conduct outside of marriage including homosexual conduct. You can claim that it's a pretext. But nonetheless it is true that the bylaws would not prohibit a celibate christian homosexual who affirmed the CLS creed.

    Slate seems to have the most info on what went down in the oral arguments.
    The Supreme Court considers the risks and rewards of forced association - By Dahlia Lithwick - Slate Magazine

  8. #8
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    MBTI
    ESFJ
    Posts
    6,946

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Yeah, but it depends on the basis of discrimination. It seems clear to me here that CLS is excluding people on the basis of belief and behavior not status.
    If they are considered a religious organization, then they are allowed to discriminate on the basis of belief.


    Of course this would also allow for public funding of a group that believed in white supremacy and excluded members who did not agree even though it technically allowed in blacks.
    Which, as crazy as it sounds, makes sense in the logic of this situation.


    The flip-side is that an all-comers policy would allow 50 skinheads to join a college NAACP group of 20 and over-run it.
    Well, the NAACP is a private organization who, theoretically, are allowed to discriminate in membership. The college could always simply not recognize them as an official student group, but they also could not legally bar students from joining.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #9
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Enneagram
    827 sp/so
    Posts
    20,122

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Many news reports are misreporting this case saying that CLS bans homosexuals or are discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation. On face that's just not true and in the oral arguments Alito and Roberts pointed that out. The CLS bylaws don't allow members to partake in immoral sexual conduct outside of marriage including homosexual conduct. You can claim that it's a pretext. But nonetheless it is true that the bylaws would not prohibit a celibate christian homosexual who affirmed the CLS creed.

    Slate seems to have the most info on what went down in the oral arguments.
    The Supreme Court considers the risks and rewards of forced association - By Dahlia Lithwick - Slate Magazine
    Colleges can't discrimnate based on whether you're having sex or not either... neither does the government... just pointing that out

    I was aware of that fact as well... I heard a rather thorough report on the issue- and like I said, it's not like the group got banned or kicked off campus or anything, they just weren't given preference!

    and as for the NAACP- anyone could join at my college- I was an officer for a year at one point
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  10. #10
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1
    Socionics
    INFj None
    Posts
    9,827

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    Colleges can't discrimnate based on whether you're having sex or not either... neither does the government... just pointing that out
    Under what circumstances can they not discriminate based on sexual activity? At my first college, you could get kicked out for having sex. Not automatically, but you would definitely be disciplined and expected to undergo counseling and special accountability if you got caught. It's a private school, but they accept federal financial aid.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

Similar Threads

  1. types and christianity
    By Blackwater in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 57
    Last Post: 06-11-2009, 04:12 PM
  2. Agnostic Devout (Christian)
    By Eileen in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: 10-02-2007, 05:28 AM
  3. Why drug dealing should be legalized...
    By The Ü™ in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 08-10-2007, 02:21 PM
  4. Web Link: MBTI and Christianity?
    By Usehername in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 06-28-2007, 03:25 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO