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  1. #31
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Actually, the research has shown that the average Tea Partier has a firmer and wider grasp on current political issues than the average American does. They are just outside of the mainstream at the moment.
    That should be expected. The article also says they have a higher amount of formal education.

    Yet the article notes that they are wrong about some key political facts, such as that most of them belief Obama has raised taxes for most Americans, when he hasn't.

    I too, undoubtedly have a much higher awareness of politics than the average American, and my position is almost the opposite of the Tea Party's. We're just looking here at the difference between people who are involved in politics and people who aren't(which is the majority of American).
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #32
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    That should be expected. The article also says they have a higher amount of formal education.

    Yet the article notes that they are wrong about some key political facts, such as that most of them belief Obama has raised taxes for most Americans, when he hasn't.
    That could be argued, actually, especially if the gas tax increase passes.


    I too, undoubtedly have a much higher awareness of politics than the average American, and my position is almost the opposite of the Tea Party's. We're just looking here at the difference between people who are involved in politics and people who aren't(which is the majority of American).
    No doubt. However, ajblaise was suggesting that Tea Partiers do not debate nuances of public policy, when, in fact, they can and do debate public policy to a much greater extent than most Americans. I was countervailing that fairly obviously ridiculous claim.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #33
    Oberon
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    It's amusing to me that the left can oppose the marginalization of minorities out of one side of its mouth, and dismiss the Tea Partiers as irrelevant (or worse, deserving of whatever they get) out of the other.

    Along with tolerance-as-doctrine comes the list of who we're tolerating, and who we're not.

    [snort]

  4. #34
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Politics is Us vs. Them!

    Crap, "They" made a good play, let's make it look dumb! The game of politics.

  5. #35
    Member ElizaJane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I believe that human nature does have to be accounted for and am not against capitalism in and of itself, but it, like socialism needs to account for human nature. Obviously we aren't going to get a perfect society, but if God has a problem with fair wages and protecting the needy from the rich and powerful, he must have been pretty confused when he was inspiring the folks to write the Bible.

    No, my problem is with Darwinistic style capitalism -- with the lack of regulation that allows greed to run absolutely rampant. That allows corporate lobbyists to to rewrite bankruptcy laws and trusts financial institutions to self-regulate. This does not reflect an awareness of human nature -- or the basic greed and selfishness to which humanity is prone.

    I have a problem with allowing corporations to go overseas in order to avoid the environmental and labor laws in this country and allowing them to pay American workers such low wages that their employees need to depend upon government assistance to subsidize basic housing, utilities, food, and healthcare when the company is making huge profits and paying CEOs more in a year than their workers will ever see in a lifetime.

    And I have a problem with the inconsistent approach advocates of capitalism often use -- socialism is fine if it benefits them and bad if it benefits someone they consider less worthy than themselves.
    I don't take issue with some labor and financial regulations. In general I agree with what you've said. And I certainly see the inconsistencies you point out in some advocates of capitalism.

    What concerns me about a more socialist approach than we have now is related more to productivity and motivation. I think people will work harder and produce more when it is their family they are caring for — not when the fruits of their labor dissipate into an entire nation. Perhaps it was a mistake for me to state only the negative human impulses that drive capitalism. It's not just about providing for yourself — it's also about providing for your family.

    I do have concerns that socialism relies on a growing population. Many people point to a few European countries as good models of socialism, but these countries would be bankrupt without a steady influx of immigrants from other nations (which provides the producing base of the economy). This suggests to me that the system is not self-sufficient and not sustainable. I would be nervous to move in this direction.

    This loops back to my original question of Christianity. If we do go the idealistic route and the system fails, we're all screwed. I feel like it's our responsibility to keep a system alive that works. If I thought a socialist society could work long-term, I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's really difficult to go backward once a nation goes in a socialist direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Given the close link between conflict theory and the development of socialism. it's very dubious to state socialism relies on people being perfect or saintly.
    That's not what I stated — I said "socialism assumes that humans are better than they are." To expand, it assumes that humans will work just as hard for the good of many as they would for their own family (sorry to repeat what I said above). I don't think they will.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElizaJane View Post
    What concerns me about a more socialist approach than we have now is related more to productivity and motivation. I think people will work harder and produce more when it is their family they are caring for — not when the fruits of their labor dissipate into an entire nation. Perhaps it was a mistake for me to state only the negative human impulses that drive capitalism. It's not just about providing for yourself — it's also about providing for your family.
    This is one of the problems we face in regards to capitalism in the 21st century. Families are much smaller than they used to be, individuals are becoming increasingly isolated. We are a long, long way from our tribal origins.

    I do have concerns that socialism relies on a growing population. Many people point to a few European countries as good models of socialism, but these countries would be bankrupt without a steady influx of immigrants from other nations (which provides the producing base of the economy). This suggests to me that the system is not self-sufficient and not sustainable. I would be nervous to move in this direction.
    European countries are not socialist. Many of them are just as capitalistic as the US (as a whole, just in different ways).
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #37
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElizaJane View Post
    I don't take issue with some labor and financial regulations. In general I agree with what you've said. And I certainly see the inconsistencies you point out in some advocates of capitalism.

    What concerns me about a more socialist approach than we have now is related more to productivity and motivation. I think people will work harder and produce more when it is their family they are caring for — not when the fruits of their labor dissipate into an entire nation. Perhaps it was a mistake for me to state only the negative human impulses that drive capitalism. It's not just about providing for yourself — it's also about providing for your family.

    I do have concerns that socialism relies on a growing population. Many people point to a few European countries as good models of socialism, but these countries would be bankrupt without a steady influx of immigrants from other nations (which provides the producing base of the economy). This suggests to me that the system is not self-sufficient and not sustainable. I would be nervous to move in this direction.

    This loops back to my original question of Christianity. If we do go the idealistic route and the system fails, we're all screwed. I feel like it's our responsibility to keep a system alive that works. If I thought a socialist society could work long-term, I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's really difficult to go backward once a nation goes in a socialist direction.



    That's not what I stated — I said "socialism assumes that humans are better than they are." To expand, it assumes that humans will work just as hard for the good of many as they would for their own family (sorry to repeat what I said above). I don't think they will.
    I just wanted to point out that this is not something that has to do with socialism.
    Look to the United States. Our immigrants are just legal immigrants and refugees, and i'm sad to say that they don't pick fruit or work in factories much.
    Many of them don't do much at all, some make pizza. In an economical view, they're not a profitable bunch to have.
    Thankfully, the ones in charge don't look at it like that. We have problems with integrating them into our society.
    Not the asians, usually, but people from the former soviet republics, africa and the middle east.
    We've gotten better at it, but they're one hard bunch to reform in order to make them work within our machinery.
    Your immigrants on the other hand are often illegal, from Mexico and other places, and they do the work americans don't want to do.
    Like picking fruit and working illegally in low-paid construction jobs and gardens, or as maids.
    They don't come to the U.S to slack around and do nothing, they come because you americans have jobs for them.

    The statistics say this much:

    The illegal immigrant population of the United States in 2008 was estimated by the Center for Immigration Studies to be about 11 million people, down from 12.5 million people in 2007.[2] According to a Pew Hispanic Center report, in 2005, 57% of illegal immigrants were from Mexico; 24% were from other Latin American countries, primarily from Central America;[3] 9% were from Asia; 6% were from Europe; and 4% were from the rest of the world.[3]
    Illegal immigration to the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



    Now that we have established that you have more immigrants, and not only shellshocked refugees who do nothing all day, but people who actually work...
    I'd say it has little to do with immigration.
    The reason that we have immigrants is that the vast majority of them are refugees and that we, as opposed to many other countries, are guided by more humanistic values.
    Not saying we're saints or lovely little fluffbunnies, we have our faults, but "socialism" is not one of them.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  8. #38
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    This is one of the problems we face in regards to capitalism in the 21st century. Families are much smaller than they used to be, individuals are becoming increasingly isolated. We are a long, long way from our tribal origins.
    True.


    European countries are not socialist. Many of them are just as capitalistic as the US (as a whole, just in different ways).
    Also quite true. There is a difference between socialism and a welfare state, and I always try to remind people of this. Sweden is not a socialist state. Not even close, actually.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #39
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    True.




    Also quite true. There is a difference between socialism and a welfare state, and I always try to remind people of this. Sweden is not a socialist state. Not even close, actually.
    Quite true. Our system is Social Democratic, which is a different ideology.
    Our current government is Neo-liberal (right-wing), but they have become INCREDIBLY unpopular because they've been cutting taxes and in turn the welfare system down.
    They will not be re-elected this autumn, no doubt about it.

    The Social Democratic party and the left-wing coalition have promised to undo everything the rightwingers did during their mandate period.
    It has caused too much grief already. I just hope people will remember this eight or twelve years from now and not re-elect the bastards again.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElizaJane View Post
    It is interesting to think about how political views and Christianity relate. I once thought socialism or communism would be considered more "Christian" than capitalism. However, I'm starting to think differently about that. A quote from Brothers Karamazov sums it up well:

    “...for socialism is not only the labor question, or the so-called fourth estate, but is primarily the question of atheism, the question of the contemporary incarnation of atheism, the question of the Tower of Babel, which is being constructed simply without God, not to attain Heaven from Earth, but for the drawing down of Heaven to Earth.”

    In addition, socialism assumes that humans are better than they are. Capitalism, on the other hand, assumes that humans are imperfect (in line with the Bible) and offers a structure that works with basic human impulses—greed, selfishness, etc.
    "Untouched by the breath of God, unrestricted by human conscience, both capitalism and socialism are repulsive."
    --Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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