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  1. #21

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    I dont really see how the race, religion and status are important, perhaps they correlate with privilege and therefore their grievance can appear less legitimate to some people but that's how it is.

    There is exactly an inverse perspective which suggests that non-white, irreligious, underclasses have no legitimate grievance because they do not have the same life experiences or troubles as the middle classes.

    By itself I dont think the constituency is as important as their ideology or drive to realise it, I think there's a great deal of similarity between ideological capitalism and its anathema Marxism, in my experience they appeal to similar personalities for similar reasons.

    As far as associations between capitalism and Christianity go, that's a complete mistake, the capitalist idea of man as rational, avaratious calculator is as inaccurate or one dimensional as Borg like communism. Smith supposed not that man was naturally greedy but that hopefully price mechanism markets would harness the worst for the better, not that people were necessarily so, now that its in full effect people have to be that way to succeed. Effectively capitalism has become normative, instead of resting upon pre-existing norms.

    There are also as many, if not a lot, lot more, utopian ideas and fantasies about perfectability of both individuals and prices or allocative efficiency within capitalism as socialism. I can name three right away, personal responsiblity equals success, parsimony is rewarded, there is a trickle down effect/a rising tide raises all boats big and small.

    Likewise I'd question whether or not Christianity and the bible are actually averse to perfectability, the Irish monastaries who preserved Christianity through the dark ages wouldnt have understood that, they had an optimistic creed based upon the idea that "Ye Shall Be Gods". I'm not sure that the present day Scrooged, Puritanical, Calvinistic Christianity could have survived the Dark Ages.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    And I have a problem with the inconsistent approach advocates of capitalism often use -- socialism is fine if it benefits them and bad if it benefits someone they consider less worthy than themselves.
    I tend to agree with that the most, the reality is that free market capitalism quickly failed at its inception and in its place a kind of military keynesianism based on empire took its place.

    It was essentially lawless and occasionally this reasserts itself with the behaviour of corporations taking unethical competitive edges and advantages at any opportunity. That's were the double standards exist.

    We really exist in a world were mixed economies are the norm, class struggles are what dictate the success or failure of the country or between countries in a world system. Whether or not the sustaining myths and ideology can motivate people to work and prevent enough people going crazy or at least going crazy in a way that doesnt benefit the economy is important too.

  3. #23
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    I've noticed it's ok to attack the people behind the tea party rather than deal with the issues. Typical, let's keep those people in line lest they actually make a difference.

    I don't really know a lot about it, not very interested in politics. I just notice that it's a pretty common thing to do, it's only ok when it's about "the other side." I recently saw a flickr group with "tea party signs" (with some obviously photoshopped) making fun of people who had spelling issues. Do you think the "average american" doesn't have spelling issues? Which is it?

    Don't address the points, just try to discredit the people involved. Politics as usual. I'm sure there are some "oppressed" groups looking for marriage licenses that are not very oppressed financially. Does that make their point less valid?

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurel View Post
    I've noticed it's ok to attack the people behind the tea party rather than deal with the issues. Typical, let's keep those people in line lest they actually make a difference.

    I don't really know a lot about it, not very interested in politics. I just notice that it's a pretty common thing to do, it's only ok when it's about "the other side." I recently saw a flickr group with "tea party signs" (with some obviously photoshopped) making fun of people who had spelling issues. Do you think the "average american" doesn't have spelling issues? Which is it?

    Don't address the points, just try to discredit the people involved. Politics as usual. I'm sure there are some "oppressed" groups looking for marriage licenses that are not very oppressed financially. Does that make their point less valid?
    I agree with that, I dont support the Tea Party people, they are like the Marxists to me and hanker after an imaginary golden age and would make everyone miserable trying to refashion the world in that image but I dont believe that picking on them will make their points go away.

    They ought to be engaged with and their points answered, although I do think that this isnt going to get far, its a little bit like debating politics online, its politics as sport and you might as well tell a Mets fan that the Yanks are great or something like that.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElizaJane View Post
    In addition, socialism assumes that humans are better than they are. Capitalism, on the other hand, assumes that humans are imperfect (in line with the Bible) and offers a structure that works with basic human impulses—greed, selfishness, etc.
    I'll just assume that you're ignorant of Adam Smith's writings on the subject.

    Smith (and many others) have made the argument that capitalism requires moral context. Ideological proponents of capitalism often overlook or ignore this important detail. What's ironic about this is that many of those who espouse capitalism as some sort of beacon of freedom often also complain about how society is becoming increasingly immoral. The logical disconnect is astounding.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #26
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElizaJane View Post
    In addition, socialism assumes that humans are better than they are. Capitalism, on the other hand, assumes that humans are imperfect (in line with the Bible) and offers a structure that works with basic human impulses—greed, selfishness, etc.
    Given the close link between conflict theory and the development of socialism. it's very dubious to state socialism relies on people being perfect or saintly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurel View Post
    I've noticed it's ok to attack the people behind the tea party rather than deal with the issues. Typical, let's keep those people in line lest they actually make a difference.

    I don't really know a lot about it, not very interested in politics. I just notice that it's a pretty common thing to do, it's only ok when it's about "the other side." I recently saw a flickr group with "tea party signs" (with some obviously photoshopped) making fun of people who had spelling issues. Do you think the "average american" doesn't have spelling issues? Which is it?

    Don't address the points, just try to discredit the people involved. Politics as usual. I'm sure there are some "oppressed" groups looking for marriage licenses that are not very oppressed financially. Does that make their point less valid?
    I know what it means to be ad hominem, and it's a fallacy I greatly dislike. I feel what I have pointed out is relevant, though. If the ideology is being driven by a feeling of marginalization from the least marginalized people in the country, there's a problem. It means that the ideology is driven by something that is more a less objectively false. Furthermore, it means the ideology is one of taking from those who don't have and giving to those who do have.

    Your point about marriage licenses is not equivalent. It's not equivalent because not getting marriage licenses has very little to do with financial oppression. I figure many, if not most of those people aren't financially oppressed, but that's a non-sequitur because it has nothing to do with their complaint.

    The Tea Party people are complaining about financial problems and political influence, two thing which their demographic elements do conflict with.

    And no one can accuse me of not confronting the actual points of the Tea Party's concerns or ideology.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I know what it means to be ad hominem, and it's a fallacy I greatly dislike.
    Ad hominem means "against the man" in Latin.

    I wonder what's the Latin for "against the girly man"?

    Okay, okay... that's just a snarky comment made in fun. It's not a serious attempt to weigh in on the discussion. Give it all the consideration it deserves, please, which is exactly none.

  8. #28
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurel View Post
    I've noticed it's ok to attack the people behind the tea party rather than deal with the issues.
    What else are we suppose to do with a bunch of old farts yelling and holding Obama is a Nazi/Communist/Kenyan/Muslim/Anti-Christ signs, take them seriously? It's not as if teabaggers go to these events to discuss the nuances of public policy.

  9. #29
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    What else are we suppose to do with a bunch of old farts yelling and holding Obama is a Nazi/Communist/Kenyan/Muslim/Anti-Christ signs, take them seriously? It's not as if teabaggers go to these events to discuss the nuances of public policy.
    Actually, the research has shown that the average Tea Partier has a firmer and wider grasp on current political issues than the average American does. They are just outside of the mainstream at the moment.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #30
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Actually, the research has shown that the average Tea Partier has a firmer and wider grasp on current political issues than the average American does. They are just outside of the mainstream at the moment.
    The average American isn't engaged in political issues at all. That's not exactly a hard benchmark to reach.

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