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  1. #221
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    And how do you decide which is "correct?" Correct to you, but objectively?
    You know, just for myself, I decided to write an essay on my concept of objective truth vs subjective value and how they interact, but that document would take up many, many, full posts, so I doubt you'd want to read it. So I'm going to give the simplest answer I can, in spite of all of it's insufficiencies.

    Yes. I'm aiming for being objectively correct. I may not have a perfect understanding, but I am sure I have a better one than them.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Danger that has not occurred and isn't part of the agenda of the people you're talking about?
    Has not occured, for the most part no. Of course, all instance of mass violence were preceded by non-violent times. Just because it's not happening now doesn't mean it isn't a danger. That is the logic of the child who wants to run with scissors.

    As for being on their agenda, I disagree. Keep reading.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Not really.
    All of the other points regarding the subject of their aggression and extremism amount to the reasoning for this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Revolutions, perhaps. I don't see much evidence of wild rioting in the streets by middle-aged, college-educated people, but shit happens.
    [/quote]

    You might be right about the middle-aged part. Youngsters usually riot. But, it so happens that I'm in the midsts of reading a book about collective behavior, and just last I night I got to a section about the study of 20 some urban riots in 1967. The studies found that the rioters were on average more educated than no-rioters, and did not have a stastically singificanlty lower income. So, shit definitely happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    So where were the ones advocating violence in so many words? Or does figurative mean "made-up to suit my position" for you?
    Subtle.


    Threat of execution.


    Revolution.


    I just wanted to note how much I like the choice of pitchfork.


    And hanging, too? Ahh, lynching.


    And watch this video!
    [YOUTUBE="PWbmEUIQOCQ"]Paranoia, malice, and prejudice.[/YOUTUBE]

    Now, in that video, truly only a minority was of the explicitly violent kind, but it was still there. Furthmore, other signs indicate what I consider a dangerous amount of delusion and hostility, even if they don't call for violence. And also consider that anyone who believe they are being threatened with death or slavery is a strong suspect for future violence, so it's not a stretch of the imagination to read violence into those signs, either.

    And for future reference, try to count everyone of these flags you see with tea partiers.



    What message could they possibly be trying to send?

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    If you honestly believe that the current political climate is more volatile than the 1960s or 1860s, then it's not lack of education. It's lack of any type of historical perspective or good judgment. That sounded like a rhetorical flourish gone wrong. I hope you don't believe that for real. You know we had a CIVIL WAR in the 1860s, right? A couple hundred thousand killed? States seceding from the Union?
    First of all, let's be clear on what I said, since you change my statement, there. I think it is as bad as the 1960s, or at the worst, aproximately equal to the 1860s. I never said worse than the 1860s.

    And it's so obvious that I know about the civil war as to make that question stupid. If I can be faulted for anything, then perhaps it would be more accurate to say we are, at worst, at the 1850s right now, since the 1860s bearly got started before the civil war took place, and we obviously aren't in one yet. Even in the worst case, though, it wouldn't be like the civil war because that was regional succession. I mean, who knows, maybe that would happen, but I think if large scale conflict began, it would be more of the pan-national insurgent kind.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    So, these people are crazy and extreme, but also spoiled, wealthy and mainstream? That's awesome. They're like Proteus.
    I made no contradictions.

    Crazy: Yes.
    Extreme: Yes.
    Spoiled: I'm not sure how this is defined.
    Wealthy: Sure, why not? But I know many of them are blue collar and suffering from the affects of the recession, even if the group is on average wealthier than the norm

    So far, none of these have even been mutually exclusive.

    Mainstream: The people who are actual ideologues are not mainstream at all. The mainstream may, however, be non-committally coralled by these ideologues.

    And it's worth noting that by many definitions of extreme, a position could be in the majority and still extreme. Relativity to others is not the only way to define extremism. But like I said, I do not think they are mainstream.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    OK, true enough, but NOT Tea Partiers. They are more politically aware and anything but apathetic. Their VIEWS might be more mainstream than you had imagined, but that doesn't make them the demographic mainstream.
    Then I would still disgree. The views of the vague "average American" are mercurial. I don't believe there is really any solidarity or allegiance between the majority of American and the tea party.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I think the Tea Partiers are pretty ideological, though. Maybe not monolithic, but they aren't showing up those rallies for sunshine and fresh air.
    Well, it's not binary. There are degrees of conviction. The highest are rabble-rousers. Some won't go that far, but are happy to be roused rabble. At slightly above zero are the people that let themselves be nudged around. Going into the negatives is moving toward people that have some degree of conviction against what the tea party stands for.

    Roughly, I imagine it would look like a hyperbolous graph, if these things could be quantified.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #222

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    To be honest most of my conservative one time buddies from the US dont speak to me anymore, they prefer the "consistency" of not speaking to a state employee, which is quite literally the same thing as a "welfare queen" or being unemployed in their book.

    I've tried in the past to explain the nature of modern mixed economies to them and the devastation which would be wrought on most of the small businesses, mom and pop stores, small holding farmers etc. which they recognise as their natural constituency or "their kind of people" if all those who spend money earned in state employment, or even those on benefits for that matter, simply disappeared but they wont hear it.

    Instead you get "you're just ignorant" a 1000 times, quickly moving to insults and personal abuse, which I think is really very, very telling to be honest.

    That's before you consider the actual human cost of eradicating what is a surplus and displaced popuation, in terms of the small, steady and slow growth economies of libertarian utopia and lore anyway, virtual fifdoms grown up around dynastic wealthy families. Although mention that and you get dismissed as emotive, emotional, irrational, bleeding heart etc. etc.

    So, its pretty much a waste of time, you've got about as much of a chance of reasoning a life long supporter of a particular football team or other sports fan out of support for their perceived side and into support of another or something different entirely.

    I'd love to be able to care less about this, because I really do think its a straight up consequence of things the establishment in the US tried to foster during the cold war, ie conservative consensus as bipartisanship, politics as infotainment, there's some arguments about the religious character of the US being important too, perhaps, in some ways. However I dont feel that I can, what I see this all amount to isnt revolution but a kind of balkanisation, race, whether you're a state employee, on benefits, poor, all the symbolism in the hate is already pointing up the scapegoats.

    Not only would that be morally revolting but it could either plunge the US into fractured, fragmented chaos letting someone else, less preferable, become world hegemon or it could allow the elements in the US who've already tried to steer the country in the direction of totalitarianism to go even further.

  3. #223

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    So in summing up, I meant to say, that the talking point's gone, all that's left now is to arm up and defend yourself when they loose it altogether.

  4. #224
    Oberon
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    Well if the danger is really that extreme, maybe all of us deluded Tea Partiers ought to be rounded up and sent to camps, where some useful labor can be got out of us while we undergo re-education in a secure setting where we can be properly watched.

  5. #225
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Well if the danger is really that extreme, maybe all of us deluded Tea Partiers ought to be rounded up and sent to camps, where some useful labor can be got out of us while we undergo re-education in a secure setting where we can be properly watched.
    In seriousness, such a course of action raises far too many concerns, and the future actions of the tea party and the amount of damage it would do are not certain enough to warrant this.

    And remember, I wanted federal use of torture to be banned for suspected terrorists to get due process.

    I'll take my chances with eventually having to fight people in fields and streets, rather than advocate a mass interment.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #226

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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Well if the danger is really that extreme, maybe all of us deluded Tea Partiers ought to be rounded up and sent to camps, where some useful labor can be got out of us while we undergo re-education in a secure setting where we can be properly watched.
    Dont be facetious.

    Way to go proving my point though.

  7. #227

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I'll take my chances with eventually having to fight people in fields and streets, rather than advocate a mass interment.
    Yup.

    To be honest the government which would intern the tea partiers would intern anyone else it could too. Its done it already in the US, lots of times.

  8. #228
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Dont be facetious.

    Way to go proving my point though.
    I wasn't being facetious in the least. I wanted to see if the Poriferan's apprehension extended that far.

    I am glad to see that, at least at present, he can resist the totalitarian impulse.

  9. #229
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Totalitarian impulse? Oh, I had better watch out.

    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  10. #230

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    Nice response.

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