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  1. #211

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    Alaska tea party rep: expulsion is 'preposterous'

    By BECKY BOHRER (AP) – 1 hour ago

    JUNEAU, Alaska — A Tea Party Express coordinator said Monday the group's expulsion from a national coalition over a member's blog posting about the NAACP was "arrogant and preposterous."

    Tea Party Express was expelled from the National Tea Party Federation, a coalition of grass-roots political groups, for refusing to publicly rebuke and oust spokesman Mark Williams.

    Williams had posted a blog that satirized the NAACP and referred to its president Benjamin Jealous as "Tom's nephew and NAACP head colored person."

    The NAACP approved a resolution last week that calls on activists and others to "repudiate the racist element and activities" within the tea party movement.

    Tea Party Express coordinator Joe Wierzbicki claimed the federation had "enabled and empowered the NAACP's racist attacks on the tea party movement, and they should be ashamed of themselves."

    "Circular firing squads of groups within the tea party movement attacking one another accomplish nothing, and on this issue the Tea Party Federation is wrong," he said in a statement.

    Christina Botteri, a founding member of the federation, said it was "interested in moving the whole Mark Williams thing behind us," to focus on fiscal responsibility, limited government and free markets.

    Tea Party Express Chairwoman Amy Kremer, who joined other members in Anchorage to discuss plans to help U.S. Senate hopeful Joe Miller, sought to distance the group from Williams, a former chairman who remained listed on the group's website as a spokesman.

    Kremer didn't say whether Williams would continue in that role.

    "While Mark Williams may speak on behalf of us in some circumstances, in some situations, and we may agree on some things, this is not one of the things that we agree upon," she said. "And Mark Williams is speaking on his own behalf, and his own behalf only."

    Kremer said Tea Party Express does not condone racism of any kind.

    The group, through its political action committee, expects to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to help Miller take on U.S. Sen. Lisa Murkowski in next month's GOP primary.

    The group also helped Sharron Angle overcome her long-shot status to win Nevada's GOP primary. Angle is set to face Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid in November.

    Miller, a Fairbanks attorney making his first statewide run for public office, has been working to raise his profile against Murkowski, a well-known, better financed incumbent.

    Miller reported having about $125,000 in campaign funding on hand as of June 30, compared to Murkowski's nearly $2.4 million.

    Miller also has the endorsement of Sarah Palin, whose political action committee has reportedly given Miller $5,000.

    Bauer said he didn't consider Tea Party Express to be a distraction for Miller.

    "We're not getting involved in what they're doing," he said.

    Copyright © 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.


  2. #212
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Oh, I very much agree that one of us is in the right and the other wrong to the point of lunacy, even dangerous lunacy. I just think the latter is you.
    Like I said, and agreement will not be met. Conflict must therefore be resolved another way. What are some other ways you can think of?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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    Senior Member Phoenix_400's Avatar
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    Well, If we're gonna keep covering this particular story...From the 'Republican' news station. Figured I'd throw up Foxnews' take on this since they usually come under fire from the Dems. Highlighting the things in the article that stand out to me.

    FOXNews.com - Tea Party Tension Flares as 'Federation' Gives Firebrand Activist the Boot

    - FoxNews.com

    - July 19, 2010
    Tea Party Tension Flares as 'Federation' Gives Firebrand Activist the Boot

    Tea Party activist Mark Williams ridiculed a national "federation" of Tea Party groups after he was kicked out over the weekend for controversial statements he made about slavery and the NAACP.
    fox news

    Tea Party activist Mark Williams ridiculed a national "federation" of Tea Party groups after he was kicked out over the weekend for controversial statements he made about slavery and the NAACP.

    In a flare-up that highlights longstanding fractures in the Tea Party movement, the National Tea Party Federation on Saturday demanded that the Tea Party Express -- a separate group -- oust Williams from its ranks. When it did not, the federation expelled both Williams and his conservative outfit.

    "That is what we do -- self-policing is the right and the responsibility of any movement or organization," federation spokesman David Webb said on CBS' "Face the Nation," where he announced the expulsion.

    But while the internal dispute served as fodder for Tea Party foes, the split might not have been a tough call for the federation and its affiliates. Tea Party Express, which organizes semi-regular cross-country bus tours of conservative activists and endorses conservative candidates, is shunned by certain sectors of the Tea Party movement in the first place. Funded by a PAC started by GOP consultants, the Tea Party Express is seen by some in the movement as too closely tied to the party and not authentic.

    Tea Party Express, though, was listed as a founding member when the federation was formed in April.

    Williams referred to this friction in a lengthy rebuttal on his personal website and dismissed Webb's declaration as meaningless.

    "Mind you, there is no Tea Party leadership; every Tea Partier is a Tea Party leader," he wrote. "But something happens when the stronger egos and personalities in a movement begin to feel a sense of ownership. ... And it is a crying shame."

    Williams claimed that he and civil rights leaders, including from the NAACP, had just reached a fragile truce and agreed to "dial down" the language when he heard about the federation's actions.

    "That careless individual Tea Partier who assumed the mantel of 'leadership' did so long enough to turn a critical and serious movement and delicate peace with skeptical groups, into a World Wrestling-style personality conflict with me at the center," he wrote. "There are internal political dramas amongst the various self-anointed Tea Party 'leaders' and some of the minor players on the fringes see the Tea Party Express and Mark Williams as tickets to a booking on 'Face the Nation.' "

    Other groups described the split as a positive step and used it to pressure other Republicans. The NAACP, which last week approved a resolution condemning "racist" elements in the Tea Party, applauded the federation and pressed other prominent conservatives to do the same. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid's campaign slammed GOP opponent Sharron Angle for her ties to the apparently ostracized Williams.

    Williams, who once said Muslims worship a "monkey god," added to his already-colorful rhetorical history last week when he slammed the NAACP for its Tea Party resolution. On NPR, he said the NAACP makes "more money off of race than any slave trader."

    What put him over the top with civil rights leaders was a satirical letter to President Lincoln posted on his website, written from the perspective of NAACP President Benjamin Todd Jealous.

    "We Coloreds have taken a vote and decided that we don't cotton to that whole emancipation thing," he wrote. In the letter, Williams ridiculed the fiscal responsibility platforms of the Tea Party.

    "Perhaps the most racist point of all in the Tea Parties is their demand that government 'stop raising our taxes.' That is outrageous! How will we coloreds ever get a wide-screen TV in every room if non-coloreds get to keep what they earn?" he wrote. "Mr. Lincoln, you were the greatest racist ever. We had a great gig. Three squares, room and board, all our decisions made by the massa in the house. Please repeal the 13th and 14th Amendments and let us get back to where we belong."

    Williams later removed the letter from his website, acknowledging that the wording "was indeed objectionable."

    The public rift comes as the Tea Party movement tries to organize ahead of the midterm elections. The movement has proved influential in Republican primary races, but its general election impact is yet to be measured. A Politico.com poll released Monday found that Washington, D.C. "elites" mostly see the movement as a fad, while outside-the-Beltway Americans see it as a potential third party. A second Tea Party convention -- a follow to the national convention held February in Nashville -- has been scheduled for October.
    Personally, I side with the NTPF on this. Tea Party Express is in the wrong and Mark Williams needs to go. I can't believe TPE is whining about it, they had a chance to remain a part of the NTPF. Its their own fault they got the boot.

    You've gotta figure, the tea party movement isn't even fully 2 years old yet. Its still a toddler and there's going to be growing pains. The tea party movement needs to stay focused on what it really wants. It looks like they're trying to do just that. As stated in the article Infjwatching posted:
    Christina Botteri, a founding member of the federation, said it was "interested in moving the whole Mark Williams thing behind us," to focus on fiscal responsibility, limited government and free markets.
    EDIT: Just got done cruising through Mark Willams blog (damn my curiosity). I love all the misstatements he's making to make NTPF look like the bad guys. He makes it sound like the NTPF if discrediting TPE from even being a tea party group. Not so, TPE is merely being expelled from the NTPF. Since there's no central control for the tea party groups, there's nobody with the authority to disband the TPE or any group. NTPF does, however, have the right to expel tea party groups from membership in their affiliation program since it IS their organization and within their rights to deny membership to those who violate their principles. Mark Williams and TPE are bein' asshats and misrepresenting this whole situation so as to make themselves look like the victims.
    "People in glass houses shouldn't use Windex when living near bird sanctuaries."- myself

    "We are never alone my friend. We are constantly in the company of victories, losses, strengths and weaknesses. Make no mistake, life is war...and war is hell. Those who fight the hardest will suffer the most...but that's what you have to do: Fight. As long as you're feeling pain, then there's hope...because only the dead do not suffer." -RD Metcalf
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  4. #214
    Senior Member Phoenix_400's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Like I said, and agreement will not be met. Conflict must therefore be resolved another way. What are some other ways you can think of?
    ...Pistols at dawn? Chess? Twister? Perhaps this calls for a heated game of Scrabble.
    "People in glass houses shouldn't use Windex when living near bird sanctuaries."- myself

    "We are never alone my friend. We are constantly in the company of victories, losses, strengths and weaknesses. Make no mistake, life is war...and war is hell. Those who fight the hardest will suffer the most...but that's what you have to do: Fight. As long as you're feeling pain, then there's hope...because only the dead do not suffer." -RD Metcalf
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  5. #215
    Senior Member eagleseven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Oh, I very much agree that one of us is in the right and the other wrong to the point of lunacy, even dangerous lunacy. I just think the latter is you.
    Great minds think alike?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix_400 View Post
    ...Pistols at dawn? Chess? Twister? Perhaps this calls for a heated game of Scrabble.
    Scrabble, at high noon. Be there.

  6. #216
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Well, you acknowledged enough of my point for my purposes. And my way of seeing it is that what the tea party wants to do would be quite harmful for this country and most of its people (and this in turn would probably even affect other parts of the world). They aren't like Nazis, but the overall point stands. We are not equals merely because we have a mutual opinion of the other.
    The point doesn't stand if you consider how much closer they are to the mainstream of political sanity in the United States.


    I think I have more reason to believe these things than you are giving me credit. You aren't even granting me anything. And actually I think the nature of their principles and the degree to which the radical elements have committed to them is a part of the danger.
    What danger, exactly? They win and do things you don't like?


    Perhaps, perhaps. At the very least, I'm expecting one assassinated Democrat, and at least one incident of mass vanadalism/rioting.
    Any reason for that, other than being a total alarmist who wants to position a large movement as somehow outside the American mainstream? Sounds like you're paranoid to me. Ironically, more paranoid than most Tea Partiers.


    The nice thing about my situation here is that being wrong is good news.
    And likely.


    I'm aware of their education and wealth, but I'm not sure why you mention it. Lord knows wealth and education don't do much to make a person less deranged.
    Demographically, it makes them less prone to violence and rioting.


    I have essentially two bases for my assertion (it's really a prediction or an estimation, and I know that there is room for error).

    1) The large amount of allusions to violence. You can say there has been little violence, but there has been a ton of threats of violence or calls to violence coming from the tea party, especially at the rallies. At the rallies, the speakers say things, the crowd members yell things, the crowd members carry signs, that all say "get violent!". The impression I get is that they are counting on the system to work for them, and get them what they want through representation. But if that doesn't happen, then the order is to go to your arms and get what you want by other means. And sadly this works all the way up. Politicians at the highest level withe most media exposure are trying to feed off a this sentiment, trying to score points by fanning the flames of aggression. So I would find it odd if you think there is no portent to conflict there.
    All of their signs say, "get violent!?" Really? I must have missed that. Why don't you Google "tea party signs" and see what comes up?


    2) I think the nature of the belief system is itself condusive to unrest. It combines absolutism with radical adjustment to the current system. These are people that want things to be very different, they want them to change very fast, and they are sure they have the right idea and have never signaled an interest in compromise. My sense is that the political conditions right now are at least as tense as they were in 1960s, but it could be as bad as the 1860s...
    You are a really BAD student of history, then. Like, mindbogglingly bad. Like, "shouldn't post in the Politics, History, and Current Events threads anymore" bad, if you are being serious.


    I think adding your own element there misses the point, but more importantly, wouldn't change it anyhow. We are not equals merely because we have a mutual opinion of the other.
    Again, did you ever stop to think that the average Tea Partier beliefs may be closer to the American mainstream than yours are?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  7. #217
    Senior Member eagleseven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Again, did you ever stop to think that the average Tea Partier beliefs may be closer to the American mainstream than yours are?
    Heresy.


  8. #218
    Senior Member Phoenix_400's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagleseven View Post
    Scrabble, at high noon. Be there.


    Okay, now I'm goin' completely off topic. For some reason this post reminded me of the following video:

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHY8NKj3RKs"]Minesweeper: The Movie[/YOUTUBE]

    "People in glass houses shouldn't use Windex when living near bird sanctuaries."- myself

    "We are never alone my friend. We are constantly in the company of victories, losses, strengths and weaknesses. Make no mistake, life is war...and war is hell. Those who fight the hardest will suffer the most...but that's what you have to do: Fight. As long as you're feeling pain, then there's hope...because only the dead do not suffer." -RD Metcalf
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  9. #219
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    The point doesn't stand if you consider how much closer they are to the mainstream of political sanity in the United States.
    Yes it does. All it takes is the other side to be less correct , over all, for the point to still stand.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    What danger, exactly? They win and do things you don't like?
    As far as I'm concerned, the fulfillment of their political goals is practically a danger, but that's not what I meant at the writing of that statement. I was refering to the kind of danger I went on to elaborate in that same post.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Any reason for that, other than being a total alarmist who wants to position a large movement as somehow outside the American mainstream? Sounds like you're paranoid to me. Ironically, more paranoid than most Tea Partiers.
    I think in one way or another I've already explained the reason for this.


    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Demographically, it makes them less prone to violence and rioting.
    The wealthy part might, the education part doesn't quite. Looking back in history, you'll find a lot of the nastiest riots (many of which lead to actual revolutations or insurgencies) were pressed by some pretty educated people.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    All of their signs say, "get violent!?" Really? I must have missed that. Why don't you Google "tea party signs" and see what comes up?
    I was being figurative, of course. I don't recall seeing one that explicitly said "get violent".

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    You are a really BAD student of history, then. Like, mindbogglingly bad. Like, "shouldn't post in the Politics, History, and Current Events threads anymore" bad, if you are being serious.
    Yeah, sure. I've been in enough arguments with you, and watched you in enough arguments with others to know that it only takes a certain period of resistance before you start saying your opponent is clearly uneducated.


    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Again, did you ever stop to think that the average Tea Partier beliefs may be closer to the American mainstream than yours are?
    Good luck finding something I haven't meditated on, chum.

    I've got a few responses here.

    1) It wouldn't exactly make a difference. That would mean that the American mainstream is more misguided. This goes back to that whole [accepting democracy but still being able to oppose other ideologies] thing.

    2) It's difficult of course to actually know where people stand, especially if they are only slightly leaning one way. But my understanding is that the way the mainstream American thinks about politics doesn't even follow lines that make sense in terms of your or my position. The average American is somewhere from mildly opinionated to downright apathetic on politics. The average American is civically iliterate. Most who vote are voting more on reaction than anything else.

    Basically, your typical voter has certain concerns and desires in life. The assess were those stand, and then they look at who is in power and has been power going back a (SHORT) distance in time. If things are good, they stick with them, if things are bad, they throw them out and put someone new in. This doesn't work real well for dealing with deep, and lengthy problems like the ones we have right now. This is unfortunately extra dysfunctional in a two party system. Becaue the problems can't be fix over night, people keep finding themselves in a sub-satisfactory personal state, so they switch from party A to B, or B to A, back and forth, without even realizing that this just makes things worse because it prevents any commited solution to the problems at hand.

    So you could say my answer is semi-affirmative. I've certainly considered that the American mainstream is not in line with my thoughts (when is the mainstream ever?), but I don't think it's in line with the libertarians either. Comparing their thoughts to these positions we take is like apples to oranges, and I don't like it when anyone, of any political position, says that the majority of Americans are swinging toward some ideology, in earnest. The majority don't, and probably never will really have an ideology.

    People in this position have, however, been very susceptible to coralling by ideologues all through-out history. That's not the same as them actually having an ideology, though, and the fallacious idea that it does mean that has mostly been used by self-defending political con artists.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  10. #220
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Yes it does. All it takes is the other side to be less correct , over all, for the point to still stand.
    And how do you decide which is "correct?" Correct to you, but objectively?


    As far as I'm concerned, the fulfillment of their political goals is practically a danger, but that's not what I meant at the writing of that statement. I was refering to the kind of danger I went on to elaborate in that same post.
    Danger that has not occurred and isn't part of the agenda of the people you're talking about?


    I think in one way or another I've already explained the reason for this.
    Not really.


    The wealthy part might, the education part doesn't quite. Looking back in history, you'll find a lot of the nastiest riots (many of which lead to actual revolutations or insurgencies) were pressed by some pretty educated people.
    Revolutions, perhaps. I don't see much evidence of wild rioting in the streets by middle-aged, college-educated people, but shit happens.


    I was being figurative, of course. I don't recall seeing one that explicitly said "get violent".
    So where were the ones advocating violence in so many words? Or does figurative mean "made-up to suit my position" for you?


    Yeah, sure. I've been in enough arguments with you, and watched you in enough arguments with others to know that it only takes a certain period of resistance before you start saying your opponent is clearly uneducated.
    If you honestly believe that the current political climate is more volatile than the 1960s or 1860s, then it's not lack of education. It's lack of any type of historical perspective or good judgment. That sounded like a rhetorical flourish gone wrong. I hope you don't believe that for real. You know we had a CIVIL WAR in the 1860s, right? A couple hundred thousand killed? States seceding from the Union?


    Good luck finding something I haven't meditated on, chum.

    I've got a few responses here.

    1) It wouldn't exactly make a difference. That would mean that the American mainstream is more misguided. This goes back to that whole [accepting democracy but still being able to oppose other ideologies] thing.
    So, these people are crazy and extreme, but also spoiled, wealthy and mainstream? That's awesome. They're like Proteus.


    2) It's difficult of course to actually know where people stand, especially if they are only slightly leaning one way. But my understanding is that the way the mainstream American thinks about politics doesn't even follow lines that make sense in terms of your or my position. The average American is somewhere from mildly opinionated to downright apathetic on politics. The average American is civically iliterate. Most who vote are voting more on reaction than anything else.
    OK, true enough, but NOT Tea Partiers. They are more politically aware and anything but apathetic. Their VIEWS might be more mainstream than you had imagined, but that doesn't make them the demographic mainstream.


    Basically, your typical voter has certain concerns and desires in life. The assess were those stand, and then they look at who is in power and has been power going back a (SHORT) distance in time. If things are good, they stick with them, if things are bad, they throw them out and put someone new in. This doesn't work real well for dealing with deep, and lengthy problems like the ones we have right now. This is unfortunately extra dysfunctional in a two party system. Becaue the problems can't be fix over night, people keep finding themselves in a sub-satisfactory personal state, so they switch from party A to B, or B to A, back and forth, without even realizing that this just makes things worse because it prevents any commited solution to the problems at hand.

    So you could say my answer is semi-affirmative. I've certainly considered that the American mainstream is not in line with my thoughts (when is the mainstream ever?), but I don't think it's in line with the libertarians either. Comparing their thoughts to these positions we take is like apples to oranges, and I don't like it when anyone, of any political position, says that the majority of Americans are swinging toward some ideology, in earnest. The majority don't, and probably never will really have an ideology.

    People in this position have, however, been very susceptible to coralling by ideologues all through-out history. That's not the same as them actually having an ideology, though, and the fallacious idea that it does mean that has mostly been used by self-defending political con artists.
    I think the Tea Partiers are pretty ideological, though. Maybe not monolithic, but they aren't showing up those rallies for sunshine and fresh air.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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