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  1. #11
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    LOL keep believing that if it helps you sleep. We will see if its just that in November, I have a feeling its a lot more people then you realize.
    Even if there are big losses for the Democrats this year, it would be incorrect for the Tea Party to automatically take credit (though I'm sure they'd try).
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #12
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Even if there are big losses for the Democrats this year, it would be incorrect for the Tea Party to automatically take credit (though I'm sure they'd try).
    I dont, I think the Tea Party is a lot bigger and stronger then you are giving them credit for. They put Scott Brown into office allegedly. In mass... lol
    Ground control to Major Tom

  3. #13
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    I dont, I think the Tea Party is a lot bigger and stronger then you are giving them credit for. They put Scott Brown into office allegedly. In mass... lol
    What you just said still doesn't change the fact that Democrats losing in November would not be proof of your belief. Maybe the tea part is bigger, maybe it's not. One way or the other, the democrats losing would not stand as evidence.

    And Scott Brown won in large part because he went up against a sub-par candidate by anyone's standards. Besides, Scott Brown is already revealing he's not much of a Tea Party champion.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #14
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    What you just said still doesn't change the fact that Democrats losing in November would not be proof of your belief. Maybe the tea part is bigger, maybe it's not. One way or the other, the democrats losing would not stand as evidence.

    And Scott Brown won in large part because he went up against a sub-par candidate by anyone's standards. Besides, Scott Brown is already revealing he's not much of a Tea Party champion.
    I think you shouldn't discount their influence, the amount of people showing up to these Tea Rallies makes anything the anti war rallies did look pathetic. That many "rich evil white people" should be sort of menacing to the Democrats and their huge government takeover plans.
    Ground control to Major Tom

  5. #15
    Member ElizaJane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    The hypocrisy of the whole thing is what really, really irritates me. I was just talking to a guy at the bookstore last night and it came up that I volunteered at the local Obama campaign office -- he told me he was sorry and justified the remark by saying he was a Christian and loved his country.

    He thinks we should help people but doesn't believe that we should be 'forced to' and that socialism is bad. I pointed out that the early church was socialist and that in the OT law, landowners were required to leave grain in the fields for the poor. "Well that was a theocracy and this isn't." Once again -- So God creates a government that incorporates charity by force of law, but we have a moral objection to charity by force of law because we serve God?
    It is interesting to think about how political views and Christianity relate. I once thought socialism or communism would be considered more "Christian" than capitalism. However, I'm starting to think differently about that. A quote from Brothers Karamazov sums it up well:

    “...for socialism is not only the labor question, or the so-called fourth estate, but is primarily the question of atheism, the question of the contemporary incarnation of atheism, the question of the Tower of Babel, which is being constructed simply without God, not to attain Heaven from Earth, but for the drawing down of Heaven to Earth.”

    In addition, socialism assumes that humans are better than they are. Capitalism, on the other hand, assumes that humans are imperfect (in line with the Bible) and offers a structure that works with basic human impulses—greed, selfishness, etc.

  6. #16
    It's always something... PuddleRiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    The hypocrisy of the whole thing is what really, really irritates me. I was just talking to a guy at the bookstore last night and it came up that I volunteered at the local Obama campaign office -- he told me he was sorry and justified the remark by saying he was a Christian and loved his country.

    He thinks we should help people but doesn't believe that we should be 'forced to' and that socialism is bad. I pointed out that the early church was socialist and that in the OT law, landowners were required to leave grain in the fields for the poor. "Well that was a theocracy and this isn't." Once again -- So God creates a government that incorporates charity by force of law, but we have a moral objection to charity by force of law because we serve God?

    I have family that receive gov health care -- not even medicare, but medicaid -- and they are dead set against healthcare reform.

    They want to pretend that it's about principles. Heck, I can respect principles if a person is willing to actually live by them. Most of the time it's just people who are afraid their slice of pie is going to get smaller or somebody who 'doesn't deserve it' like they do might get a little piece. Or they are gulping down the scare tactic koolaide without checking to see if there is any validity to what they are hearing. The private insurance companies that are working with medicare/medicare are lying to people, which, if they just take five minutes to google, they would know. I guess it's more exciting to do a Chicken Little impersonation.

    Seems to me they were all in favor of workers getting crapped on until it started moving up the food chain enough for them to feel the pinch themselves.
    This post is dead on! Well said, cafe. Don't you just love the hypocrisy.
    "In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay one invincible summer."
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  7. #17
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElizaJane View Post
    It is interesting to think about how political views and Christianity relate. I once thought socialism or communism would be considered more "Christian" than capitalism. However, I'm starting to think differently about that. A quote from Brothers Karamazov sums it up well:

    “...for socialism is not only the labor question, or the so-called fourth estate, but is primarily the question of atheism, the question of the contemporary incarnation of atheism, the question of the Tower of Babel, which is being constructed simply without God, not to attain Heaven from Earth, but for the drawing down of Heaven to Earth.”

    In addition, socialism assumes that humans are better than they are. Capitalism, on the other hand, assumes that humans are imperfect (in line with the Bible) and offers a structure that works with basic human impulses—greed, selfishness, etc.
    Plus that whole pesky free will thing the bible whines about.
    Ground control to Major Tom

  8. #18
    Senior Member Chunes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    They want to pretend that it's about principles. Heck, I can respect principles if a person is willing to actually live by them. Most of the time it's just people who are afraid their slice of pie is going to get smaller or somebody who 'doesn't deserve it' like they do might get a little piece.
    "If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. But do not care to convince him. Men will believe what they see. Let them see."
    Thoreau

  9. #19
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    Quel surprise.

  10. #20
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElizaJane View Post
    It is interesting to think about how political views and Christianity relate. I once thought socialism or communism would be considered more "Christian" than capitalism. However, I'm starting to think differently about that. A quote from Brothers Karamazov sums it up well:

    “...for socialism is not only the labor question, or the so-called fourth estate, but is primarily the question of atheism, the question of the contemporary incarnation of atheism, the question of the Tower of Babel, which is being constructed simply without God, not to attain Heaven from Earth, but for the drawing down of Heaven to Earth.”

    In addition, socialism assumes that humans are better than they are. Capitalism, on the other hand, assumes that humans are imperfect (in line with the Bible) and offers a structure that works with basic human impulses—greed, selfishness, etc.
    I believe that human nature does have to be accounted for and am not against capitalism in and of itself, but it, like socialism needs to account for human nature. Obviously we aren't going to get a perfect society, but if God has a problem with fair wages and protecting the needy from the rich and powerful, he must have been pretty confused when he was inspiring the folks to write the Bible.

    No, my problem is with Darwinistic style capitalism -- with the lack of regulation that allows greed to run absolutely rampant. That allows corporate lobbyists to to rewrite bankruptcy laws and trusts financial institutions to self-regulate. This does not reflect an awareness of human nature -- or the basic greed and selfishness to which humanity is prone.

    I have a problem with allowing corporations to go overseas in order to avoid the environmental and labor laws in this country and allowing them to pay American workers such low wages that their employees need to depend upon government assistance to subsidize basic housing, utilities, food, and healthcare when the company is making huge profits and paying CEOs more in a year than their workers will ever see in a lifetime.

    And I have a problem with the inconsistent approach advocates of capitalism often use -- socialism is fine if it benefits them and bad if it benefits someone they consider less worthy than themselves.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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