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  1. #151
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    And yet I've just explained to you that your fear and loathing mirrors their fear and loathing. Why is their hysteria frightening, but yours is justified?
    That's quite simple. I feel that "they" have a perception of the world that is for other reasons, just fundamentally incorrect. I'm not going to act like some epistemological relativist and assume that just because both accuse each other of being wrong, that none of us must be right, or that both of us must be right.

    I see my response as alarmed and negative, yet I don't see it as hysteria. This is because 1) I think my concerns are more founded in rationale and reality, and 2) my concerns are a reaction to theirs. They fear some kind of weird ass conspiracy and are pushing an extreme agenda to combat this bogeyman. I wasn't so afraid until their delusions came around. If a turbulent schizophrenic becomes dangerous, those who respond to him with fear have more to actually be afraid of than the schizophrenic does. Likewise, I think a religiously driven suicide bomber is acting a figment of the imagination, but lord knows I have very real reason to fear him/her.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #152
    Oberon
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    ...so, in short, you feel that a largish fraction of the US population is both agitated and irrational to the point of psychosis, and you rightly fear this group of dangerous psychotics? Is that a fair representation of your position, would you say?

  3. #153
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    That's quite simple. I feel that "they" have a perception of the world that is for other reasons, just fundamentally incorrect. I'm not going to act like some epistemological relativist and assume that just because both accuse each other of being wrong, that none of us must be right, or that both of us must be right.

    I see my response as alarmed and negative, yet I don't see it as hysteria. This is because 1) I think my concerns are more founded in rationale and reality, and 2) my concerns are a reaction to theirs. They fear some kind of weird ass conspiracy and are pushing an extreme agenda to combat this bogeyman. I wasn't so afraid until their delusions came around. If a turbulent schizophrenic becomes dangerous, those who respond to him with fear have more to actually be afraid of than the schizophrenic does. Likewise, I think a religiously driven suicide bomber is acting a figment of the imagination, but lord knows I have very real reason to fear him/her.
    Of course you believe your own beliefs are rooted in reality, the human brain is remarkably capable of reinforcing what it already knows and rejecting anything that threatens these beliefs. This applies to birthers, atheists, scientists, and religious followers of all creeds. Why would political ideology be exempt from this reflex?

  4. #154
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    ...so, in short, you feel that a largish fraction of the US population is both agitated and irrational to the point of psychosis, and you rightly fear this group of dangerous psychotics? Is that a fair representation of your position, would you say?
    Psychosis is a psychological concept that doesn't quite apply here. I don't know, I guess it arguably might, but that's more of a debate over what psychosis means.

    I am saying they are misinformed and delusional, yes. This is not uncommon in group behavior. I'm not going to disagree that there's a lot of reason for people to feel anxious lately. Anxiety goes to frustration, frustration lets out in aggression.

    Along side that, you have the qualities of collective behavior, particularly in disaster. We didn't exactly have a disaster here, but we had the financial meltdown, which is pretty bad. There isn't anywhere good to look either. Our foreign policy is currently a shameful failure, culture wars are brewing, and we're taking on an extra large amount of immigration lately. So there's a lot of crazy stuff going on. When this happens, rumors tend to get out of hand, and people start believing really crazy stuff they might not have otherwise believed.

    So, combine vulnerability to misinformation with a desire to let aggression out. People in this state are easy to manipulate. Now is the time for cynical powermongers and/or deranged ideologues to strike. They can rouse the confused and angry masses for whatever their purpose is. Just look at Glenn Beck. I don't know which of the two he is, but I do know he's full of shit, and a lot of people in the tea party think he really makes sense. Beleiving him is damn close to being psychotic. But I don't think of it that way because all of these people, or at least most of them, are pretty ordinary people. They are not inately insane, but they are enduring circumstances in which people tend to lose their heads.

    This is sort of the opposite from a conspiracy, because it's something that just emerges from the bottom up, with only a little nudging from those self-assigned popular leaders, who often have no coordination with each other, or are even at odds with each other. It's plain old rabble-rousing. If these things keep going for a long time, however, what tends to happen is that competition between the factions eventually leads to one ruling them all.

    Right now, this is all still a fledgling movement and lacks much cohesion. But its cohesiveness appears to be increasing, and the question for me is; what sort of movement is this going to become? I rather hope that a century from now, tea partiers are not remembered as Jacobins or Bolsheviks, but lord knows their rhetoric makes it sound like that's what they are aspiring to be.

    Of course, if they legitimately take control of the government, they'd never have a reason to be like those movements. But if they take control of the government, they are going to instill a series of absolutely terrible, dreadfully harmful policies, so I don't know which is worse.

    EDIT: I'd like to note that regarding the revolutions in France and Russia, those who revolted certainly had good cause to be angry with the system, but their attempted solution was possibly worse than anything that would have happened if they did nothing. That being said, I'm frankly more sympathetic to their plights than I am to the tea party's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Of course you believe your own beliefs are rooted in reality, the human brain is remarkably capable of reinforcing what it already knows and rejecting anything that threatens these beliefs. This applies to birthers, atheists, scientists, and religious followers of all creeds. Why would political ideology be exempt from this reflex?
    This statement and question is pointless. I already said that I'm not going to be an epistemological relativist. I'm not going to say that everybody has an equally distorted confidence in their stance, and then resign from any attempt to decide who is right and who is wrong. To do that would be to completely embrace ignorance, and I'm sure that neither you nor much of anyone else here is actually interested in doing that. And that's okay, because nobody should be interested in doing that. It is not inherently wrong to believe your own position to be correct. It is in fact necessary to ever do anything right.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #155
    Senior Member eagleseven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    tea party people more readily and strongly experience things like fear, loathing, disgust, rage, etc... than I do over damn near anything.
    Ironic considering that you just said you...

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    have moved more toward a mix of fear and loathing that makes it hard to laugh
    ...of people you call...

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan
    Wealthy, old, religious, white people who feel marginalized
    Pardon my ROFL.

  6. #156
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagleseven View Post
    Ironic considering that you just said you...



    ...of people you call...



    Pardon my ROFL.
    And what is funny about this, precisely?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  7. #157
    Senior Member eagleseven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    1) I think my concerns are more founded in rationale and reality
    Tea Partiers, such as myself, ground ourselves in economic theory (particularly the Chicago School) which these past two administrations have blatantly ignored. You see scary-looking people on TV, and assume that there is no substance behind the movement. There is substance, yet you won't see it broadcast on CNN, and thus you assume it does not exist.

    It is no different from looking at the nutty Code Pink protesters and assuming that all anti-war activists are braindead nutjobs. Intellectually lazy.


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  8. #158
    Senior Member eagleseven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    And what is funny about this, precisely?
    You fear and loathe those people whom you claim so easily fear and loathe others?

  9. #159
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagleseven View Post
    Tea Partiers, such as myself, ground ourselves in economic theory (particularly the Chicago School) which these past two administrations have blatantly ignored. You see scary-looking people on TV, and assume that there is no substance behind the movement. There is substance, yet you won't see it broadcast on CNN, and thus you assume it does not exist.
    Oh, I'm aware of the economic background of various tea party ideas, and I know of the Chicago school of economics.

    First of all, I disagree with the economic views that libertarians have. Second of all, Tea party members such as yourself aren't necessarily the majority. The majority are probably people who don't know terribly much about what's going on and are easily lead around (as usual). There's a very loud minority of crazies and con-artists who unfortunately have a lot of influence.

    The average person that identifies with the tea party can probably fire off a bunch of dandy phrases, but probably also lacks a particularly deep understanding of economics. And again, those that do, still subscribe to economic beliefs, I should particularly say socio-economic beliefs, that I reject anyhow.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  10. #160
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagleseven View Post
    Tea Partiers, such as myself, ground ourselves in economic theory (particularly the Chicago School) which these past two administrations have blatantly ignored.
    LOL wut. Monetarism has dominated macroeconomic policy since the late '70s. It wasn't until the subprime crisis that neo-Keynesianism even had a seat at the table. Meanwhile, you still have people like Bernanke who think you can solve a demand-side problem by manipulating the money supply.

    It just don't work that way, and it's this sort of pseudointellectual snobbery that is the most irritating about the teabaggers.

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