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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    It is the personal stupidity of the pilot who refused to land on the second designated location after three failed attempts and strong disapproval of the ATC. It is kinda strange though.
    Odd indeed.

    Polish Plane Crash Conspiracy – Breaking Global News

  2. #32
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    You might want to point out that you're talking about the late President of Poland in the thread title, and not the Kaczynski most of us in the US would be familiar with - the Unabomber.
    That's exactly who I assumed this was referring to. I was wondering why his death was so tragic, but yes the actual incident being referred to is shocking.

  3. #33
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    I miss the Unibomber already
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  4. #34
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Dumb question, LL, but what is an NGO? I know nothing about european politics or political structures/orgs.



    I know, the title of the thread was confusing for me until I read the opening line. "OMG -- there's a been a massive prison explosion???"



    Where's your next act -- a wake?



    It's been all over the 'net, I just didn't know the president's name.
    I don't know if anyone else has answered your question, Jennifer, but NGO stands for Non-governmental organization, which can be an organization on the local, state, federal, or international level and can have various orientations (according to Wikipedia) including:

    Charitable orientation;
    Service orientation;
    Participatory orientation;
    Empowering orientation;

    These things can be helpful to harmless to potentially dogmatic. They are organized by the private sector, not the public sector. At least they are not directly affiliated with the government, although they can lobby (or even be strong lobbies, if they have a strong foothold).

  5. #35
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Yes, to clarify, I am not talking about the unabomber, rather the Polish president and his entourage.

    Sky, I did not mean any disrespect regarding Katyn. I know it is a very sensitive subject with the Poles; however, it seems highly...peculiar...that a president would take his entourage, a host of representatives from non-governmental orgs, among others, and travel on one plane to commemorate this massacre, even if it represents a grave wound in the country's heart. It is highly irresponsible and indicates a grave derelict of responsibility, poor infrastructure, lack of foresight, and terrible planning at worst, and a poor decision at best.

  6. #36
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    Yes, to clarify, I am not talking about the unabomber, rather the Polish president and his entourage.
    So what you are trying to say is that the Unabomber did not pull off one of the greatest political upsets by becoming the first European president who was a former terrorist. Hmm Ok...

    Well that just simply means the Unabomber is still alive and maybe this is just the opportunity for Ted to get out there and run for president of Poland.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  7. #37
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    However, they may destabilize (or capitalize on a destabilization) Poland, seeking to influence the new guard of leadership to be more pro-Moscow, leading Poland to unilaterally rescind its NATO membership. This is more likely than you think, especially in light of the growing economic tensions within the EU.

    An attack on the smallest NATO country is absolutely not the same as an attack on Japan, because NATO is almost entirely a unilateral treaty. We protect Japan because we don't want them becoming a regional hegemon again. We have almost entirely no reason to protect Poland.
    1.) The EU is a separate entity from NATO; joint membership would make it less likely for other European NATO countries (many of which have a higher degree of loyalty to the EU) to "defect" from their treaty obligations, but withdrawing from the EU would not affect either NATO membership or US actions regarding a physical attack on Poland. Its unlikely in the extreme for Poland to withdraw from NATO, as countries tend to "balance" against perceived threats rather than "bandwagon" with them in hopes of appeasing the potential aggressor.

    2.) If we don't protect Poland, then we effectively nullify the NATO treaty, which is a mutually beneficial collective security framework of vital importance to our foreign policy goals. The trans-Atlantic alliance is at least as important as our treaty with Japan, which in any case is no longer perceived as a possible security threat and over the last two decades has become only a minor threat to our relative global power (I personally think a stronger Japan is to our benefit in an increasingly multi-polar world, but many "realists" would disagree with that assessment).

    Edit: Besides, if we failed to fulfill our treaty obligations with Poland, we compromise all of our security treaties, as other countries will not believe our assurances.
    Last edited by lowtech redneck; 04-13-2010 at 04:16 PM. Reason: self-evident

  8. #38
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    1.) The EU is a separate entity from NATO; joint membership would make it less likely for other European NATO countries (many of which have a higher degree of loyalty to the EU) to "defect" from their treaty obligations, but withdrawing from the EU would not affect either NATO membership or US actions regarding a physical attack on Poland. Its unlikely in the extreme for Poland to withdraw from NATO, as countries tend to "balance" against perceived threats rather than "bandwagon" with them in hopes of appeasing the potential aggressor.
    It isn't an issue of political organizations. Instead, it's perceived solidarity. The Eastern European countries still feel separated from the West, and considering that the Western nations aren't feeling too friendly toward the poorer Eastern ones right now, a more Russian-friendly government could easily arise within Poland as the last Cold War generation begins to die off.

    2.) If we don't protect Poland, then we effectively nullify the NATO treaty, which is a mutually beneficial collective security framework of vital importance to our foreign policy goals. The trans-Atlantic alliance is at least as important as our treaty with Japan, which in any case is no longer perceived as a possible security threat and over the last two decades has become only a minor threat to our relative global power (I personally think a stronger Japan is to our benefit in an increasingly multi-polar world, but many "realists" would disagree with that assessment).
    Yup. NATO's outdated. It really doesn't serve the US interest, and only serves the EU by keeping military expenditures down. It made perfect sense in the Bretton Woods world, but now, as Russia becomes less of a threat to the West (because really, what does Western Europe have that Asia doesn't) and transatlantic interests shift relative to each other, does it really make sense to have that remaining source of instability?

  9. #39
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    The most I've seen is a small "oh, isn't that sad" blurb in newspapers, and filler used as a slight breaks between the rabid slavering over whether Obama prefers his toilet paper to roll over the top or from underneath. Really, what more of an interest would the average person here take in the story? It's not like it's something any of us can do anything about.
    It's a shame if there's a prevailing view that noone much takes an interest that something so shocking happens. Wouldn't you be disappointed if this happened to Obama and the chiefs of staff and the rest of the world said, why should we take an interest, there isnt anything any of us can do.

  10. #40
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    It isn't an issue of political organizations. Instead, it's perceived solidarity. The Eastern European countries still feel separated from the West, and considering that the Western nations aren't feeling too friendly toward the poorer Eastern ones right now, a more Russian-friendly government could easily arise within Poland as the last Cold War generation begins to die off.

    Yup. NATO's outdated. It really doesn't serve the US interest, and only serves the EU by keeping military expenditures down.
    1.) Poland's relations with Western Europe have little to do with Poland's relations with the United States, through NATO or bilaterally (they were smart to insist on a bilateral treaty). Anyway, Poland's long-term economic and security interests in conjunction with entrenched antipathy towards Russia make such a vast strategic realignment extremely unlikely, particularly in light of recent events.

    2.) I disagree; the European countries benefit more, but the United States gains increased resources in the event of a direct attack, military bases through which to project power and increased intelligence cooperation. Maintaining the alliance also prevents start-up costs (in terms of time, resources, bargaining, and the creation of a functional joint command structure) from undermining any multilateral action that gains European support. Most importantly, its an important institutional tool through which to retain allies in a changed international context.

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