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  1. #41
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurel View Post
    I take it "everyone" doesn't include the child because he is evil incarnate?
    Well in my hypothetical Damien might have some jet lag but he is mostly Ok regardless of his evil incarnate.
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  2. #42
    Senior Member Rebe's Avatar
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    How can there be blame on both sides? If this kid is crazy she needs to get it dealt with, probably not by sending him back to russia. He is HER CHILD now. LEGALLY. Not "some random russian guy someone pawned off on you." Wonder if she will be charged.
    I disagree. There is most definitely blame on both sides. When you give birth to a baby, you know your own family history, genes, etc. When you adopt an older child, you have the right to know if he has severe issues and is violent, etc. Just because he is a child doesn't mean some therapy will just shape him right up. If she knew beforehand and wanted the responsibility, that's a different story. Yes, it could have been handled better. But think about it, a kid threatens to set your house on fire...what are you supposed to do? Calm him down? Talk him out of it? It is reasonable that she panicked. Just as if the child have a medical issue, such as cerebral palsy, the parents should be informed before signing the contract.

  3. #43
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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  4. #44
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    It is only about the motive.

    A. You adopt the child to be a comfort to you? An abuse.
    B. You adopt the child to help the child?

    Who needs help?
    Disturbed children.
    Do not accuse the Russians.

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  6. #46
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Why would you legally adopt a child that you hardly know? Wouldn't you meet with the child several times and look into its background?

    I think returning the child is cruel, once you've already adopted.
    Yes, and I would add almost criminally irresponsible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurel View Post
    You have the same legal responsibility for a child you've adopted as for a child you had born to you. (which means you don't randomly send them away hoping someone else will take responsibilty) That being said, at least she didnt kill the kid like the other stories there have been from Russian adoptions.
    Yes, and I would add you have the same moral and ethical responsibility to your child. Key word being "YOUR" child. It doesn't matter whether the child was biological born of your womb and DNA or adopted, there are no 'take backsies'. Whether or not the parents were fully informed, that was a risk they should have known - children can be born with or come with developmental and emotional disorders and issues. And countries who adopt out internationally generally do so because they are struggling or still recovering from war, famine, economic crises, etc. Children who come from traumatic and/or impoverished backgrounds are much more prone to have 'issues'.

    Whether or not they were coached on all the above risks by an adoption counselor or their agency, aren't those facts just common knowledge?? And also a basic tenet of parenting?

    And beyond that, don't parents willingly or even grudgingly accept the burdens and challenges and surprises and disappointments that come with children because you know, that's a part of parenting???

    It disturbed me that adoptive parents could take their role so flippantly. I don't really sympathize with the parents, I know it sounds unfair to the family in the story, but 'problem adoptive children' are NOT an anomoly. Children adopted from Romania/eastern Europe and Vietnam after the war, a lot of children had/have behavioral and developmental issues. Not all adoptive parents were informed, in fact, many faced similar scenarios to the family in the story. The difference is, these other families accepted their responsibilities and their fates and parented these children.

    Again, this isn't like returning a faulty lightbulb to the supermarket. There are no 'take backsies'. And if you do decide that you can't or don't want to parent and do 'return' your child, I really think you forfeit the right to adopt again. The way this family went about returning their child while they had another petition pending to adopt another child from the same country - that is crazy to me.

    The story really bothered me because it is NOT an anomoly. It highlighted several key issues I find problematic with the adoption-industrial complex (yes, I said that word). It can be argued that it is 'too easy' to become a biological parent and I'll say it is waaaaaay too easy for anyone to become a parent and to adopt. The legitimacy and ethical standards of individual adoption agencies and laws country to country vary waaaaaaay too much (*cough cough* Madonna, Angelina?)

    And international adoption is a direct reflection of global patterns of war, natural disaster, colonialism, and inequality. Wealthier nations adopt children of the developing world or else countries recovering from some sort of historical set back. You might say "well duh, that just means children who are in need go to better homes" but no, in reality an adoption market fueled by inequality just makes it too easy for children (and biological parents) to be exploited.

    This isn't to say there aren't stable, functional, loving adoptive homes for children who are adopted internationally or otherwise, just that this case is not unusual and highlights some fundamental flaws and dangers in international adoption. And yes, the adoption agency should have been more forthcoming and you would hope the standards of care and hygiene in the adoption centers was at a certain level.

    This reminded me of an older friend of mine who is a Korean adoptee. She said she had trouble adjusting to her family at first (which is common, it is at least a 'phase' adopting families go through) and her adoptive parents told her "if you don't shape up, we're going to send you back to Korea". And she said this really confused her because she didn't understand what "problems" they were referring to. She ran away several times once she got older.
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  7. #47
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    I would understand the outrage if the woman's action was clearly motivated by a sense of entitlement for instant gratification with no regards to the harm done to others. Her seemingly impulsive actions create a very negative first impression.

    Would people still want to lynch her if instead of shipping the kid back without a proper RMA, she went through the proper channels? What moral principle would have been violated under this scenario?

    Keep in mind that the kid was making very credible threats to kill the family in their sleep.

  8. #48
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    It isn't easy moving from one country to another at the age of seven. I was a good kid, when I was eight, but even I could produce enough evidence for pyshcological disruption, when I had. I spoke the same language and was there with my mother. Admittly in some respects, I had wittnessed a lot of voilence up until we moved though.
    In my experience, adoptive kids were loved beyond life in their families. It's not some thing you consider lightly. This whole situation makes me feel sick. The adoptive mother didn't seem to ask for help. Older adoptive kids do have issues. Did she expect the kid to be grateful? In my humble opinion, the women went into this blindly, expecting it to be roses and fluffy kittens, and was shocked to find she had a distrubed kid on her hands. Did she think the child was oblivous to being institutionalised? The kid probably has the scars of being unloved, and being the victim of routine abuse.
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  9. #49
    Member StoryToTell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    It is only about the motive.

    A. You adopt the child to be a comfort to you? An abuse.
    B. You adopt the child to help the child?

    Who needs help?
    Disturbed children.
    Do not accuse the Russians.
    Disagree. I can't imagine that someone would adopt a child simply to "help" them. It's not as if a pregnant woman will babble about how excited she is to help her baby so how is going into an adoption agency so different. Foremost it's about adding a new member to the family. Being helpful is tied to that package but isn't the sole purpose of it.

  10. #50
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    I would understand the outrage if the woman's action was clearly motivated by a sense of entitlement for instant gratification with no regards to the harm done to others. Her seemingly impulsive actions create a very negative first impression.

    Would people still want to lynch her if instead of shipping the kid back without a proper RMA, she went through the proper channels? What moral principle would have been violated under this scenario?
    It's both about means and 'intent' in my view. She seemed wholly ignorant of a lot of basic principles of adoption and parenting - I think the ignorance gets swirled up with a sense of entitlement so you don't really know where one ends and the other begins.

    I want to know if she reached out to her school and community for help. A friend, who is not maternal and does not want children - pointed out the adoptive mother might not have had 'the resources'. Which is code for not having the money and not knowing better.

    But she should have been prepared for all the variables before hand. You don't even buy a car unless you are sure you can make the payments for the short foreseeable future. Wouldn't you make sure you have enough resources to raise a child? And even public schools have counselors, principles, teachers, right? Was there no pastor or religious leader they could turn to? Social services? I find that answer "maybe they just didn't have the resources" to be a BS answer because it doesn't account nor excuse the 'lack of proper channels' that the family took.

    If she had taken the proper channels to return the child, I think that would she would have done all the above ^^ as well. I'm pretty sure the adoption agency would have required the adoptive family or at least strongly urged them to seek professional help and see it through with the child. It would have been less traumatic and cruel for the child. I don't even know if you CAN always return a child within a certain amount of time to an adoption agency.

    While we're burning this family at the stake at it is, I wouldn't be surprised if the family suspected that the adoption agency wouldn't take the child back and found the fastest, sneakiest way around it. They did not inform the driver or anyone else in Russia about returning the child, the driver said he was shocked when he realized no one was expecting or waiting for the child at the ministry where he was dropped off. Super shadiness all around.

    Keep in mind that the kid was making very credible threats to kill the family in their sleep.
    I'm so glad you pointed this out.

    After I debated this with my friend (also an IXTJ) my response is - but he's a seven year old child??? And apparently he was malnourished when he arrived. I mean seriously, he is no physical threat. Sure, his 'threats' may have been disturbing, I'm sure he's capable of biting and kicking and being dangerous in that way, but again, he is seven years old. To me these threats seemed cries for help, signs of maladjustment, distress, deeper issues. If he was threatening to burn the house down and you take him seriously, search his room and his person for matches and lock him in his room at night. And again, seek professional help.

    Now, if he were killing and torturing small animals or playing cruel and disgusting tricks on other children - I would think twice about what I said. But otherwise, he's just a small child.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

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